[Ibogaine] Donna and Bupe Q

Hannah Clay hannah.clay at ntlworld.com
Mon Feb 14 09:56:32 EST 2005


I'm going through my backlog so sorry this is out-of-date.  I just wanted to
add that I had problems both keeping the tablet under my tongue and the
taste made me sick.  However I found that if I take it lying on my back this
solves both these problems!  Dunno why!  So I take mine when I wake up so
I'm laying in bed.

Just in case it could help anyone!

Hannah :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kurt Finguerra" <kosmocraterhater at hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Donna and Bupe Q


>
> >Hi List
> >
> >Has anyone come off using subutex (buprenorphine??) Im really want to
stop
> >using and really can not afford ibogaine i have done the sub before
stayed
> >clean  for a year and started using again.  I wondered what dose to start
> >with
> >last time i started at 16mg i thought this was to high.
>
> What and how much are you using?. And are you sure you started with 16mg?.
> Its totally possible, though induction usually begins a bit lower, as the
> bupe 'displaces' the dope, done', whatever is in there. Dope is a bit
easier
> to switch from. You were on it for a year, so you know how it works kinda.
> If you have some left over suboxone and your asking how to detox yourself
or
> switch, i would do like this:
> Do 'last' bag(s) of dope. wait 12 hours or until truly feeling withdrawl.
> wait until the goosebumps come . If you take bupe to soon, even though you
> think your sick(like few hours after last fix when nose starts runnin),
you
> will feel kinda bad as the bupe will 'kickout' the heroin from the
receptor
> site. I have found that waiting till i was sick enough and the bupe
actually
> brought a little relief instead of sickness. (12 or so hours for me). I am
> now on Suboxone(though I did do ibogaine) and prescribed 6mg a day. This
> took about a week to totally work, meaning that i still felt a little off
> now and then. I just had a half bundle or 3to4 80's a day habit, nothing
> huge, so It wasn't horrible. individual variations applicable :-)
>
>
> Now, if we suppose a bundle(100-200mgs of dimorphine) a day for a few
months
> is the 'size of habit', and the dope is decent, I would, after the 12
hours
> has passed, take ONE 2mg suboxone(or subutex preferrably at induction then
> switch to subutex). If you feel ok to take another in a few hours, ok.
> A total of 6mg the first day is good and on day two, 8 mg is ok.
> you can go to 12 if need be but 8 I have found is around where the ceiling
> effect kicks in.(bupe seems to have a ceiling on the amount of effect it
> produces. Its only a partial MU agonist, which partly explains this. So it
> means that above a certain dose, bupe dosen't do anything more(in simple
> terms).
> I don't know, tell me donna, how did 16mg  a day make you feel before. Why
> did you think it was too much?. Make you tired? Does bupe give you a
> feeling?(like say methadone) I find it doesn't, largely. Any euphoric
> feeling is a 'flicker' and then is only noticed at all only f you "look
for
> it". It doesn't do much for me except what its supposed to. Cuts out the
> obsessivess over heroin and crew. Cuts out the urge to go do it. And I
know
> if I did, I wouldn't really get a rush or a nod cuz the bupe beats the
> heroin out of the recptor site. So I don't do it. Haven't yet in a month
and
> a half I've been on it. Did Ibogaine in sept. Used again in october(19th)
> and got on suboxone again  in nov. I was on 16 mg last year but I didn't
> take it, just sold it and did herpin instead. Am on 6mg a day and feel OK.
> Still obsess a bit about dope and gang, and Methadone DID do a better job
> then bupe, but I can't afford methadone, that why I don't get back on. Was
> on it for nearly a decade at 120mg a day(clinic) and got off and
withdrawls
> were NOT that bad.(not like a tornado of pain like a heroin kick, fast and
> fierce, but like a monsoon, slow  and neverending,) Tolerable with bupe
> after 5 days off the methadone and have kicked DONE with and without bupe)
> surprisng to most folks but its true.
> Now the 6 years of xanax/klonopin @12mg a day, that was bad, and that was
> same time as methadone.
>
> ###Sublingual absorbtion rates for suboxone are around 50-70% of
> buprenorphine is absorbed. almost none or 0.03% of the nalaxone makes it
in.
> Even if 1 or 2% made it through, it still wouldn't have an effect.
> Anyway, the sublingual route by-pass the metabolic mayhem of first pass
> liver metabolism. In most opiates and in bupe, this "kills" 50% or more of
> the dose. With buprenorphine, some metabolism is ok, cuz the metabolite
> norbuprenorphine is kinda active, but most of the effect is from bupe.
> Now, ANY OTHER ROUTE besides sublingual (with suboxone and due to
nalaxone,
> parenterally is NOT an option and will be like narcan), is no good. Even
> holding the tablets between cheecks isn't effective, as buccal absorption
> rates(meaning cheek) are only 20-30% and the vessels from the cheek cause
> first pass metabolic destruction of bupe. Orally this is true as well and
> the amount the even passes the gut wall is only around 15-20%. and half
that
> is killed right off the bat from the liver(same with the cheeks
absorbtion).
> So, I said all this cuz key to sucess with suboxone is the proper dosage
and
> proper dosage won't be achived without proper administration/absorbtion.
> Like when the tabs sit under your tounge and your mouth fills up with
spit,
> don't swish around and cause the tabs on the sublingual floor to become
> dispersed into the mass of saliva, which usually only 'touches' the
cheeks.
> Just keep the spit out of the way and let the tabs disolve with as little
> disruption as possible. Now that doesn't mean SWallow the spit, as A
DECENT
> AMOUNT of bupe has collected in there anyway despite best efforts and its
> better for it to asorb through the cheeks or to put the whole mass under
> your tounge in 15 minutes/after the tabs dissolve, than to send it to your
> stomach where its gonna pass unabsrobed or if it is absorbed, killed off
by
> the liver.  So, in other words, keep tabs under tounge and don't swallow
for
> 10 to 15 minutes. You should feel a difference.
>
>
>   I would appreciate  any
> >advice.
> There it is. Sorry it goes on and on. Please respond with any questions.
No
> I'm not a doctor, as you can tell but am willing to say that my opinion is
> worthwhile.
>
>
> >
> >love donna
>
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>
>
>
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