[Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Steven Anker stevenanker at hotmail.com
Fri Feb 4 18:59:25 EST 2005


I thought it was excellent that Howard had Peter at the round table. I've 
read the stuff but wasn't there and think Howard did a wonderful job putting 
it all together. Peter did raise interesting ideas and counter-points. It 
was also great that there were lots of people with interests other than 
ibogaine. Discusion and debate are crucial elements of a healthy society. It 
never hurts to look at any topic with skepticism. Dogma is rarely such a 
great thing. Arguments can solidify a position and thinking. I read 
somewhere that a bright mind can hold two contradicing arguments at the same 
time.

Preaching to the choir can make you feel better, but does it help create 
change? Methadone, AA, weed, 5-htp, yoga, puppies, this, that and the other 
all have a hand in helping some keep clean, we need more tools not less and 
nothing should be singled out as 'the way.' Ibogaine or any other treatment 
modality isn't for everyone. AA doesn't help me because it's a wee churchie 
and more important it's harmful for me to be around a bunch of people 
telling war stories about drugs... it really gets my appetite going. For 
others it's a godsend. Your way isn't my way. Iboga is the same way, helps 
some, others perhaps not as much. I guess this list is my version of AA 
meetings.

In America at least I think the only hope is for 18-mc and nor-ibogaine for 
addiction treatment. Ibogaine will only be legal after the rapture and then 
it'll be tough to get so it won't matter.

My 2 cents about some other discusions: If people need to self medicate with 
opiates, fine by me. No one knows why some people take heroin and feel fine 
for the first ever and lucky others vomit and never want to touch it again. 
If some one ever wants help getting and staying clean, then I'll do anything 
to help out. If using dope is what's needed to get by, then fine as well. I 
just can't hang with junkies too much as it's dangerous for me. There is a 
sizeable minorty which chooses to self-medicate via all sorts of shit, some 
legal, some not and they should not be criminalized because of whatever 
metabilc issues of the brain they have and they choose illelgal ones. I like 
my drug dealers from the third world rather than large phramacuetical 
companies.

Dana - genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming 
conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as 
possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and take 
the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in NYC are 
there that many people who have been there all gathered together? Hell, I'd 
leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate for a weekend in cold and 
misery to hear you talk about it. I'd be honored to be there while you go 
through it.

To who ever wrote that mushroom newbie bit: Oh teach me oh wise one...

Peace out all,
Steve.


>From: HSLotsof at aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
>Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:32:35 EST
>
>Dear Vector,
>
>I invited Peter to the Ibogaine Roundtable for a number of reasons.  1) 
>Peter
>is very well liked/loved/respected by many active European drug users 
>because
>he defends their dignity and humanity as drug users.  2) Peter is well 
>known
>in the harm reduction movement and I felt his presence at the Ibogaine
>Roundtable would increase attendance at the meeting. 3) It appeared to me 
>that the
>session would be more interesting with someone providing counterpoint to 
>the
>"usual suspects" who are all very pro ibogaine, myself included, and 4) 
>were we
>able to hold the discussion part of the session I think Peter would have
>provided valuable discussion points that could be responded to, 
>demonstrating
>ibogaine's value.
>
>I don't think Peter is bashing ibogaine or people who are trying to stay
>clean.  Peter is bashing a system that targets drug users to be victimized 
>and I
>am also opposed to that system.
>
>I think ibogaine and its benefits can be well defended and its proponents 
>can
>respond adequately to Peter Cohen and I do believe that his presence and 
>the
>possibility of confrontation at the Ibogaine Roundtable increased 
>conference
>participation during the session allowing the greater message of ibogaine
>benefits to reach a larger audience.
>
>Peter is not bashing people who chose not to use drugs but, he might take
>difference with your term, "staying clean" as it provides the inherent
>stereotyping of a prohibitionist order that must demean drug users, a 
>system to which
>many of us fall victim.
>
>I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is reported to
>have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to 
>speculate
>that Dana's yelling may have been method of responding to Peter's method of
>initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all process and 
>if it
>gets people thinking, all the better.
>
>Howard
>http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
>
>
>In a message dated 2/3/05 5:55:54 PM, vector620022002 at yahoo.com writes:
>
> >
> >--- The Garden <GardenRestaurant at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Is he in treatment or something ?
> >
> >He's a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.
> >
> >The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
> >New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he's doing is
> >bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?
> >
> >I don't get it. This isn't gossip or repeating what someone else said,
> >you say so right in your own brochure.
> >
> >http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
> >
> >I don't have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
> >reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
> >threatened to hit him and there isn't anyone who agreed with what he
> >said.
> >
> >Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
> >Randy's letter got a rant for a reply.
> >
> >What's the point of doing all this?
> >
> >I don't take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
> >the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
> >Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
> >out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
> >brainwashed. You've lost me, what's the reasoning behind why Peter
> >Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?
> >
> >.:vector:.
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>   From: BiscuitBoy714 at aol.com
> >> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
> >> Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
> >>
> >> In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
> >
> >> writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
> >
> >> Howard had nothing to do with this, I don't know why Peter thinks
> >> otherwise.
> >> Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
> >> is
> >> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
> >> to
> >> excorcise these 'diabolical' drugs and use-patterns some people seem
> >> to
> >> attach to.
> >>
> >> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination
> >>
> >> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
> >> not
> >> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
> >> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
> >> unthinkable
> >> even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
> >> idea
> >> in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )
> >>
> >> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
> >> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
> >> book
> >> about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
> >> USE
> >> IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
> >> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
> >
> >> mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
> >> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)
> >>
> >> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
> >
> >> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
> >> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
> >
> >> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
> >> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
> >> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
> >>
> >> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
> >> attribute
> >> healing to.
> >>
> >> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as
> >>
> >> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
> >> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
> >
> >> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
> >> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
> >> seek
> >> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
> >
> >> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
> >>
> >> or wife we hate.
> >> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as
> >>
> >> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
> >> countries
> >> for most (the rich excepted).
> >> I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
> >> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
> >> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
> >> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
> >> getting
> >> rid of these 'ultra dangerous' drugs.
> >>
> >> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
> >> and
> >> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
> >> defeatist
> >> voodoo ideology.
> >>
> >> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
> >> ciao
> >> pc
> >>
> >> PS .Howard, I'd prefer you add this as txt representing my New
> >> Orleans
> >> gig.
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
> >
> >> getting back to me. I'm very interested in your views.          
> >> Randy
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------
> >> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> >> University of Amsterdam
> >>
> >> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> >> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> >> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
> >>
> >> mail address: postbox  94208
> >> 1090 GE Amsterdam
> >> email: cohen.cedro at uva.nl
> >> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> >> fax +31-20-525 4317
> >>
> >> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> >> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> >> languages)
> >>
>
>
>   
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