[Ibogaine] Made a plan

shelley krupa skrupa20022002 at yahoo.com
Sat Dec 24 11:20:35 EST 2005

Wow! Matt, you have given this alot of thought & I respect that.I'll be interested in your reflections when you come "back",love shell

Matthew Shriver <matt at itsupport.net> wrote:        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}                Hi Shelley
  The dose range is based on my previous experiences with ibo.  Since I got clean I have been mountain biking and rock climbing on a regular basis and have gotten into, what is for me, the best physical condition of my life.  So the two grams of ibo I got would equate to about 27mg/kg which would be more than I have ever taken and more than I want to take.  But, on the heels of the surrender conversation we had in here recently, I am hoping for something along those lines and I don’t want to miss the train on that.  Briefly my ibogaine experiences look something like this:
  First experience (heroin dependant) was about 20mg/kg.  I felt unready mentally for what was happening so I tried (and succeeded so it seemed) to go to sleep.  I don’t remember most of the experience as a result.  Although I was not sick, I craved, so I used heroin again within a few days.
  Second and third experiences (heroin dependant) about 15mg/kg each time.  I was afraid to take the full dose based on my first experience.  By the time I was strung-out on heroin, I had stopped using other hallucinogens; and slowly my addiction eroded my self esteem and self image to the point where close self examination (which can come up on hallucinogens, but especially on ibogaine) was really painful.  I was somewhat sick and had cravings and returned to heroin within a few days both times.
  Fourth experience (still heroin dependant) about 20mg/kg I think.  This was the first time I took the full dose and determined to stay awake and ride out the whole experience.  I stayed clean for about 30 days before I relapsed again.
  Fifth experience (methadone dependant) about 22mg/kg.  This was like 4+ years later.  I was desperate enough to not care what the experience was going to look like in terms of uncomfortable feelings or whatever.  By this time there were more cases of fatalities due to ibogaine, previous to this it was generally believed that fatalities were limited to people who mixed other drugs with the ibogaine, by this time it was clear that there were cases where there weren’t other drugs present.  But I also felt at that time that death was preferable to continuing the way I was going.  So I went for it, I had an amazingly profound experience and have been clean to this day.  Incidentally, I have also been a non TV watcher, and a vegetarian since that day as well.  I have never seen such water cooler classics as Survivor or, well that’s the only one I can think of, oh people always talk about CSI, never seen that either.
  So as briefly as I can here is my thinking going into this:
  After 2 and half years clean, and being active in NA, I feel as though the shine has left my life. My connection with whatever I was connected to during my last ibogaine session has faded.  I have recently had to admit that I may well have some sort of biological predisposition to depression.  But the thing is that I can’t tell the difference between depression and addiction.  They both seem to manifest in this vague sense of something missing inside; some internal lack.  Although depression seems to have a much greater mood lowering effect, addiction is more a sense of unease while depression is a more hopeless feeling.  But these are really just distinctions I have recently made, the truth is that it is hard for me to tell what is behind what I am feeling sometimes. 
  I remember being extremely unhappy as a kid and I was seeing psychologists all through school because I acted out violently and anti-socially.  Then I discovered drugs, alcohol first and then later better stuff.  Opiates were my hands down favorites, but in true addict fashion I would use other drugs when my favorites weren’t available.  On and off over the years I was also on anti-depressants because every so often the addict life would get unbearable and I would try and off myself and wake up in the nut hut.  But I always felt like the whole “chemical imbalance” thing was an excuse used by psychologists so they could hand out another scrip and send you on your way.  For me I had always assumed that my problems with depression were a result of my using.  Now it appears that it may have been the other way around.  Now that I have been clean and had some direct experience with feeling depressed I have had to revise some of my notions.  My life has never been better, I have a good
 relationship with a girl whom I love, I have a great job making more money than I have ever made, I respect myself for the way I am able to show up in my life, I never steal or lie to the best of my abilities, but I feel like shit inside most of the time and I can’t freaking stand it anymore.
  So I followed all of the suggestions of my NA sponsor and friends and attempted to use the “treatment” for addiction to treat my depression and it failed completely.  I was attending 5 NA meetings a week, talking to people in the program, working steps, meditating daily, exercising regularly, and feeling like suicide was looking more and more like a viable option.  This was about 4 months ago or so.  So at the suggestion of my boss (who is also in NA) I went to the doctor and got on anti-depressants again.  There has been an improvement in my mood but the side effects have sucked so I have discontinued them, and the depression has returned.  So I finally decided to do the ibogaine again.  I have been in discussion about it for like 6 months or more. 
  So my plan is to use the days immediately following the ibo to try and address whatever internal issues I have going on and try and deal with the source of this depression.  If necessary I am willing to try other anti-depressants and play that stupid assed medication balancing game, but hopefully I won’t have to burn that bridge for some time yet if at all.
  Ok so having said way too much already, there is one more thing that factors into my dosage decision.  As I mentioned, I got 2 grams and I am not going to take it all.  So being that I have been anxious about this whole decision, I took about 3mg/kg a week ago.  (If anything I should probably change my clean date over that but whatever
)  I was hoping that a low dose would help me to feel more comfortable with the idea, thinking that when the feeling hit, it would be somehow familiar and less scary.  Well that happened a little, but it also re-enforced my fear a little somehow.  I was really surprised by how strongly such a low dose affected me.  But I was even more surprised that about 4 hours later I felt completely normal again, except that it was late and I wasn’t tired.  
  So 1000 words later, here’s the real answer to your question.  I want to take enough to hopefully get as powerful of an effect as I had last time, powerful enough that I can surrender to it completely.  The surrender effect was achieved last time, I feel, by being overwhelmed by the ibogaine.  But based on how short the effect of the low dose was I am afraid of taking a low (say 8-10mg/kg) dose and then trying to add to it for fear that the low dose will allow me to acclimate to the feeling too much so that adding to the dose won’t get me to the place of surrender.  I might also add that my intuition tells me that the higher dose is better.  Originally I was going to go with the 15mg/kg range but I have just had this sense that it should be a little higher.
  I also wanted to address your comments about the 12 steppers.  My sponsor is convinced this is a horrible idea and he considers it using; he has even gone so far as to suggest that doing ibogaine might lead to me using heroin again which I find rather ridiculous.  Ironically, my boss is his sponsor and he is more open minded about it, but he has 25 years clean and my sponsor only has 16 so maybe it takes that long to loosen up some of those ideas.  But my sponsor and many other people who I have talked to about it, view it in very black and white terms, because that’s what works for them.  Addicts are just way to prone to rationalize reasons why using is ok.  People in recovery know that, so they draw the line in a very conservative way.  If they consider all drugs as powerful as ibogaine to be using, then they don’t have to question whether or not something like that might ever be a good idea for them.  
  But then someone like me comes along and not only says that ibogaine is different but that I am actually seriously considering using it again, with 2 and half years clean and active in NA, some people get really threatened by that.  So what I have done is be very careful about who I have told that I am doing it.  I had the conversation about considering the idea with a lot of people and found that a lot of them had negative reactions, sometimes they were condescending and even offensive to me and my beliefs and experiences.  I was more than a little put out by it.  But I get that that is what works for them.  They need to do what they need to do, and I need to do what I need to do.  But now that I have actually made the decision, the people who I have told about it have been skeptical, but respectful.
  From: shelley krupa [mailto:skrupa20022002 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 9:47 AM
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Made a plan

    Hey Matt, glad to hear you have a plan! Can I ask how you came up with that dose range? The reason I asked is because the time I did ibogaine clean ,I needed so much less mg/kg. I am so with you in your idea about taking ibogaine for growth, I have been considering this as well,I've been chatting with my (experienced) therapist too,I'll wait until my year birthdate in February.I was surprised how open minded some 12 steppers were , unfortunately not the one who was my sponsor at the time, her comment was,"sounds like you can get addicted to the cure". I wish you & all on the list some sort of merry something,of your choosing ,& Matt I'll be thinking of you on the 26th,love shell

Don Patton <SuperBee at Tstar.net> wrote: 

  I have a surprising amount of anxiety around it.
  Imminent life and mind altering experiences seem to do that. Create anxiety, I mean..

Ibo seems to be on two tiers, the desparate to be cured, and the curator.

You go, Matty, don't forget to write!!

Matthew Shriver wrote: 
    Well my next journey is set for next Monday, the 26th.  This will be my first time taking ibogaine without being opiate dependant. My planned dose is about 16mg/kg but I am considering raising it to 19mg/kg which I probably will do.  I don’t have a scale so my dose is estimated but it should be within a mg/kg or so.  I have been going back and forth on this decision for months, talking to everyone I know about it, and finally decided that I wanted to go ahead and do it.  I have a week off from work, and everyone who needs to know, knows my plan.  


    I have a surprising amount of anxiety around it.  The most powerful consciousness altering methods I have employed in the last two and a half years are exercise and eating a big meal on an empty stomach, so this is going to be pretty drastic compared to what I have become used to.  But I am excited too.  I have been wrestling with issues around depression and just feeling less than fulfilled in my life lately so I think this will help.  I have actually recently been in touch with a psychologist who did ibogaine herself a couple years ago and we plan on having our first session together as soon after my journey as I am able. 


    For those who are interested, I am not changing my NA clean date around this. I can reserve that option for later should I feel that I need to.  I have also shared that sentiment with a number of my close friends in NA and found a surprising amount of acceptance.  None of them think I should do this, but they are willing to support me and let me make my own decisions on the matter.


    I’ll let you all know how it goes.


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