[Ibogaine] Re: rant again MAPS and burning man attendees

tink tinkerbell.sarah at gmail.com
Mon Aug 8 14:06:56 EDT 2005


I don't think that there is a single person on this particular list
who is in any sort of denial about whether or not they're an addict. 
I can't speak for everyone, but it's sort of the impression that I've
gotten.  Every one is at their own seperate stage in their recovery,
or their relapse, and utilizing every tool available, including this
list, as well as meetings (if they work for you- I know, I know, "it
works if you work it, so work it you're worth it" , but I personally
have not had the best experiences with NA, starting early on when I
was dragged to alateen, my sister to ala-tot, etc.  Perhaps I have
some issues about the whole program because of that, but I know that
when I went to some of the first NA meetings shortly after going to
the methadrone clinic, I was told I wasn't allowed to participate
because of it.  After ibogaine, I got the whole, "You can't use a drug
to get off of a drug" shpeil, etc, etc, ad nasuem) to help keep you
sane and /or sober, well, why not.  I think it's wonderful that NA has
helped you out as much as it has, but that is not the only route to
go.
I also had a hard time interpretting where you were comiing from at
first, and am still not quite sure, but I wanted you to know that I
have the utmost respect fro everyone and anyone who has managed clean
time, by what ever means.  Harm reduction, abstinence, education,
awareness, and honesty, open-mindedness and willingness can go a long
way, which ever your recovery tools of choice are.  I think that's
what's important, and it drives me completely postal to think that
there is so much infighting when, in a perfect world, a "if it works
and works well, why not use it" line of thinking would get us all a
hell of a lot further.
And here I sit in my glass house throwing stones again...
Matt, you did write very thoughtfully and honestly, and i very much
appreciate that. I just didnt understand the conflicting view points
in your post.
Like I'm one to talk...
love and light and SERENITY to all
tink

On 8/8/05, Matthew Shriver <matt at itsupport.net> wrote:
> Well as an active NA member (I hold service positions at group and Area
> level where I live) I think this assessment is a little harsh.  At least the
> conclusion, "...his message is as reasonable as it's going to get" [from the
> 12 step recovery crowd].  I disagreed with some of his positions mainly on
> one crucial point.  Not everyone who does drugs is an addict.  Based on that
> one point, I have to recognize that there are people who get to use
> recreationally.  I just have to remember that I am not one of them.
> However, and I think this point is recognized in Mason's post, there are
> addicts who think they are using recreationally who have yet to come to
> terms with their addiction.  My personal opinion is that people should be
> free to use whatever they like, addicts and non-addicts alike.  Because they
> should all be free to have their own experience, whatever it winds up
> looking like.  Addicts who don't realize they are addicts will get to
> experience what that is like, and in the end will either grow from that
> experience or die from it.  But I am clear that I don't have the right to
> deprive them of that experience.
> Matt
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Krista Vaughan [mailto:krista.vaughan at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:25 AM
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: rant again MAPS and burning man attendees
> 
> For someone whose background is "the rooms" and attends twelve step
> meetings, his message was very thoughtful and reasonable. Scary as it
> might be to contemplate what he wrote was a open minded version
> version of the message that you'll find at nearly all twelve step
> meetings. There are different ways to use the steps and many examples
> from this list come to mind, but for the most part his thoughts would
> be considered enlightened and accepting by "recovery" standards.
> 
> You've forgotten the meetings you've attended Preston ;-) the main
> message is that all drug use is abuse and once you're an addict, you
> are always a addict. By the standards of the twelve steps and our
> medical establishment, especially the doctors working specifically
> with addiction, what he wrote was a tame and open minded version of
> the party line and all the groups he mentioned and grouped together
> have in common that they are full of people who do drugs, promoting
> the freedom to do all drugs. In most twelve step meetings you'll have
> a hard time finding any acceptance if you are on methadone
> maintenance, much less doing hallucinogens.
> 
> He didn't rant, he wrote a articulate and reasonable message. If you
> ever hope to communicate with the other side, where nearly all the
> people I've ever met who got off drugs are coming from, his message is
> as reasonable as it's going to get.
> 
> KV
> 
> On 8/8/05, Preston Peet <ptpeet at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> > >To add my own two cents I believe drug abuse is a disease and not a
> > choice and arresting millions for a disease is vengeance not health
> > care or justice.<
> >
> > I'm not sure exactly of where you are standing in your message (other than
> > that you disagree with a lot of what Dana -apparently- wrote), but I must
> > note that in modern medicine, we treat diseases by cutting them out with
> > scalpels, overdosing them with radiation, and force feed them barely
> tested
> > pharmaceuticals. I hesitate to call "addiction" a "disease" mainly for
> these
> > reasons.
> >
> > > Legal doesn't mean it's not drug
> > abuse, but you don't get arrested for going to the liquor store or
> > bar.<
> >
> > Nor does all drug use, legal and non, equal drug abuse, as your note seems
> > to acknowlege.
> >
> > >I'm doing my best to be accepting because
> > that is what I've found here, acceptance of almost anything and anyone
> > but my background and sobriety started in the rooms. Chronically
> > smoking marijuana or doing psychedelics every time something is
> > bothering you, are considered to be drug abuse as much as anyone doing
> > heroin or smoking crack.<
> >
> > Well, they're certainly obviously considered "drug abuse" by you, but not
> by
> > all, again, obviously.
> >
> > >The "medical marijuana movement" and weirdoes
> > who go to burning man and think doing mdma is the answer to every
> > problem that comes your way (and yes I understand they are two
> > distinct groups), are considered by most people in recovery or doctors
> > dealing with addiction, to be part of the problem not the solution.<
> >
> > Your mixing these three very distinct groups is odd to me. The "medical
> > marijuana movement" hasn't a single thing to do with Burning Man festival
> > (which I've never been to but am most happy it exists), other than perhaps
> > some of those who attend Burning Man ALSO support the MMM. The folks at
> MAPS
> > are doing RESEARCH, in LABS for the most part, or at least are trying to
> > (but it's tough getting "permission" from "the MAN" to do so), and deserve
> > all the kudos and support (at least from me) that they can get.
> >     And why are those who go to Burning Man "weirdos" in your book? I
> don't
> > get that at all.
> >
> > >The medical marijuana movement and psychedelics movement as typified
> > by the drug marathon of burning man and mdma heads from maps and
> > dancesafe, taking ibogaine and appropriating it into their own agendas
> > does nothing except attach all the stigmas associated with those
> > groups to ibogaine.<
> >
> > No, prohibitionists who make moral judgements on others' personal drug use
> > habits, and dancing habits, and harm reduction methods are the ones
> > attaching stigma to "those groups" involved in ibogaine. Why should we NOT
> > "appropriate" whatever into our own agendas? Everyone is different, so
> > everyone will get something different out of whatever it is we're
> discussing
> > at any given time.
> >
> > >Drug addicts who continue doing drugs promoting
> > ibogaine as the solution to drug addiction.<
> >
> > Since I'm a drug addict/chronic pain patient who promotes ibogaine as a
> TOOL
> > (not a solution to drug addiction), I kinda take offense at this attitude
> > (besides the fact it ain't a complete sentence to begin with).
> >
> > >The DEA was clear about their opinions on medical marijuana with the
> > arrest of mark emery. I had never heard of mark emery before being on
> > this list, all I get out of reading the headlines is a multi
> > millionaire pot dealer was arrested. I should care about this why and
> > it's different from the crack dealer down the street or a exstacy lab
> > being shut down in what way?<
> >
> > Not that you "should" care, but whenever ANYONE is arrested by the
> > DEA/police/customs/anyone with or without a badge, using prohibition as
> the
> > excuse to arrest them, it is wrong, UNLESS the arresttee has been
> > committting VIOLENT offenses against others. It's just wrong to continue
> > supporting in anyway a system that only enriches the cartels AND the
> > prohibitionists, neither of whom what a single bit of change in current
> drug
> > laws or enforcement of those laws. I myself do not like Marc Emory at all-
> > he's always been a complete jerk to me personally- but that doesn't mean
> he
> > deserves to be extradicted to the US for crimes he is NOT wanted for in
> his
> > own country, especially since he's been selling flower seeds (not to
> mention
> > publishing Cannabis Culture magazine, a magazine the DEA/ et al DO NOT
> LIKE
> > AT ALL). Karen Tandy, currently a spokesperson for G.W. Pharamaceuticals,
> > promoting their new Savitex (sp?), a WHOLE PLANT EXTRACT OF MARIJUANA and
> > LYING about the fact it has no "high" involved in its use, all the while
> > trumpeting how bad the natural whole plant is, is sick, sinful, and
> > disgusting, and she should have to experience just one day (or lots and
> lots
> > and lots more days) of what those who use marijuana have to go through
> when
> > they get arrested. Emory supported (and still does) a positive change in
> the
> > system, as jerkful as he could sound sometimes when writing me.
> > Whether you yourself still use or not is NOT the issue, nor should it be.
> I
> > do not drink alcohol, and don't like dealing much with drunk people- but I
> > don't want it outlawed either. I simply try and avoid situations where I
> > might have to deal with them without chance of escaping their drunken
> > babbling. No one deserves to be arrested for drugs, use or sales, ever, no
> > matter what. It's wrong, and counter productive, in every single case
> > (EXCEPT for those intelligence officers and other corrupt officials who
> > enable the importation into Europe and the US of TONS of heroin and
> cocaine
> > every day, while making sure me and my friends, and others I've known and
> > heard about over the years, get arrested for buying $10 bags of the same
> > exact stuff they emable the importation of.
> >     THIS is why you should care. Put aside the judgement calls (that you
> > noted you weren't making at the beginning of your message) and accept that
> > the system we have in place is only making things worse at every point,
> and
> > that we really can't separate one drug from any other in terms of
> > prohibition.  Prohibition is simply wrong and only makes matter worse, in
> > every way, and does not one single thing to make any lives better, EXCEPT
> > for the cartels and those who are in the business of waging a War on SOME
> > drugs and users.
> >
> > >My interest is recovery from drug abuse, not hearing rich drug dealers
> > and drug abusers rationalizing why drug abuse is ok for everyone. This
> > is called denial. From the tone of your writing I gather you are used
> > to talking to those who are part of your subcultures, most people are
> > not and do not want to be any more then they want to move into a
> > crackhouse.<
> >
> > Then forcus on YOUR recovery from drug abuse, and decide if you feel that
> > the police chasing after you while you were abusing ever helped you at all
> > in any way. Rationalize for me please how prohibition, and pointing
> fingers
> > at people whose lifestyles you don't agree with, is going to bring about
> any
> > improvements in any way at all, please.
> >
> > Peace and love,
> > Preston
> >
> > "Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> > mistaken for madness"
> > Richard Davenport-Hines
> >
> > ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
> > Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> > Editor "Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs"
> > Editor "Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
> > Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History" (due out Sept. 2005)
> > Cont. High Times mag/.com
> > Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> > Columnist New York Waste
> > Etc.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mason Shipley" <maseshipley at gmail.com>
> > To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogiane related news in July MAPS newsletter
> >
> >
> > Without making any judgments against anyone I wanted to say that what
> > Matthew brought up is true. I'm doing my best to be accepting because
> > that is what I've found here, acceptance of almost anything and anyone
> > but my background and sobriety started in the rooms. Chronically
> > smoking marijuana or doing psychedelics every time something is
> > bothering you, are considered to be drug abuse as much as anyone doing
> > heroin or smoking crack. The "medical marijuana movement" and weirdoes
> > who go to burning man and think doing mdma is the answer to every
> > problem that comes your way (and yes I understand they are two
> > distinct groups), are considered by most people in recovery or doctors
> > dealing with addiction, to be part of the problem not the solution.
> >
> > The medical marijuana movement and psychedelics movement as typified
> > by the drug marathon of burning man and mdma heads from maps and
> > dancesafe, taking ibogaine and appropriating it into their own agendas
> > does nothing except attach all the stigmas associated with those
> > groups to ibogaine. Drug addicts who continue doing drugs promoting
> > ibogaine as the solution to drug addiction.
> >
> > The DEA was clear about their opinions on medical marijuana with the
> > arrest of mark emery. I had never heard of mark emery before being on
> > this list, all I get out of reading the headlines is a multi
> > millionaire pot dealer was arrested. I should care about this why and
> > it's different from the crack dealer down the street or a exstacy lab
> > being shut down in what way?
> >
> > My interest is recovery from drug abuse, not hearing rich drug dealers
> > and drug abusers rationalizing why drug abuse is ok for everyone. This
> > is called denial. From the tone of your writing I gather you are used
> > to talking to those who are part of your subcultures, most people are
> > not and do not want to be any more then they want to move into a
> > crackhouse.
> >
> > To add my own two cents I believe drug abuse is a disease and not a
> > choice and arresting millions for a disease is vengeance not health
> > care or justice. I also believe marijuana especially should be
> > legalized and is not the same thing as smoking crack and certainly no
> > more harmful then alcohol which is legal, there are more people in AA
> > then all the other groups combined. Legal doesn't mean it's not drug
> > abuse, but you don't get arrested for going to the liquor store or
> > bar.
> >
> > My personal opinion on marijuana doesn't change the facts in any other
> > part of my message.
> >
> > -Mase
> >
> > On 8/6/05, Matthew Shriver <matt at itsupport.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana at phantom.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 4:31 PM
> > > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogiane related news in July MAPS newsletter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We had some one from the conference at Alex Grey's would bugged Patrick
> to
> > > get her a dose of ibogaine to--get this!--treat her pot dependency.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I just had to comment on this.  I gather from the tone that you consider
> > > marijuana addiction to be a sort of non-existent ailment.  I know you
> > > didn't
> > > actually say that so I may be misreading you.  But I know people who
> have
> > > gone to great lengths to stop smoking pot, even to the extent of
> > > substituting harder drugs like heroin.  And I would say that there is no
> > > question that such a thing as marijuana addiction exists.  If addiction
> is
> > > defined by an inability to control your actions by exercising your own
> > > will,
> > > than anyone who smokes pot and wants to stop but cannot is addicted.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
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