[Ibogaine] Why tink flipped -or- an attempt at apologising and explaining...

tink tinkerbell.sarah at gmail.com
Fri Aug 5 11:50:55 EDT 2005

The greatest good is like water
Which benefits all things
And yet it does not contend
It stays in places that others disdain
And therefore is close to the way of truth

On 8/5/05, Ron Davis <rwd3 at cox.net> wrote:
> the last 12 step meeting I went to had two people excluding me.  there was a
> rift and now ther's a splinter group. 
> i don't know which one to go to, ron 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: UUSEAN at aol.com 
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com 
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:42 AM 
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Why tink flipped -or- an attempt at apologising and
> explaining... 
> In a message dated 8/4/2005 7:50:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> matt at itsupport.net writes: 
> But there is a sort of psychic damage that occurs when I lie to or steal
> from my fellow human beings, which to my mind makes honesty more than simply
> a moral value.  But whatever the case, I'll be the first to admit that 12
> step programs don't have a monopoly on recovery.  
> Hi Matt, 
> I like your point about psychic damage. From my humanist prospective, I
> think that this is perhaps where morals and ethics arise from on one level.
> Stealing and lying hurt. Sex feels good.  One reason perhaps stealing and
> lying hurt is because they hurt the community or perhaps the species
> perhaps. 
> Of course these are broad generalities. If someone is completely broke and
> steals a loaf of bread, are they immoral..or just surviving. If someone lied
> during world two to protect a Jew in the home is there lying immoral? 
> At some point I guess morality and ethics are specific to the situation. If
> heroin caused great harm in my life and I am dealing them clean, I would
> feel pain because I am violating my ethical system. Selling to others what
> causes me great pain.  If I have the cash, but steal anyway I am violating
> my personal ethical system which says that if you should buy not steal. 
> Further, I associate stealing with using, because I only stole while high or
> to get high, but then I called it boozing so my personal connection is
> stealing and get high go together. 
> As for the steps, I have friends who have done than over and over and feel
> they really benefited from them, some who felt that they were kind a neutral
> or occasionally were harmed form the experience. I go to meeting of folks 20
> plus years sober who never touch the steps (sober agnostics).  They don't,
> as I do not, believe in higher powers who remove shortcoming or have a will
> for me.  The sure are not "dry drunks" though. It really is whatever works I
> guess.  Many people on this list practice a form of harm reduction where
> they remove the most harmful drugs, but continue to smoke weed,  other also
> trip on shrooms or X. they have removed the greatest harm in their lives.
> There are some also on the list who are in the tough posistion of removing
> the harm off addiction while still dealing with chronic pain, sometimes
> still using low doses of opiates. That is tough. 
> So we have the whole spectrum here from 12 step to harm reduction.  One
> amazing thing on this list is that the various views coexist in general
> peace.  Occasional flare ups occur, but for the most part we can exist with
> our differences. 
> Sorry so long a post! 
> Sean

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