[Ibogaine] Why tink flipped -or- an attempt at apologising and explaining...

UUSEAN at aol.com UUSEAN at aol.com
Fri Aug 5 01:42:24 EDT 2005

In a message dated 8/4/2005 7:50:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
matt at itsupport.net writes:

But there is a sort  of psychic damage that occurs when I lie to or steal 
from my fellow human  beings, which to my mind makes honesty more than simply a 
moral value.   But whatever the case, I’ll be the first to admit that 12 step 
programs don’t  have a monopoly on recovery.   

Hi Matt,
I like your point about psychic damage. From my humanist prospective, I  
think that this is perhaps where morals and ethics arise from on one level.  
Stealing and lying hurt. Sex feels good.  One reason perhaps stealing and  lying 
hurt is because they hurt the community or perhaps the species  perhaps.
Of course these are broad generalities. If someone is completely broke and  
steals a loaf of bread, are they immoral..or just surviving. If someone lied  
during world two to protect a Jew in the home is there lying immoral?
At some point I guess morality and ethics are specific to the situation. If  
heroin caused great harm in my life and I am dealing them clean, I would feel  
pain because I am violating my ethical system. Selling to others what causes 
me  great pain.  If I have the cash, but steal anyway I am violating my  
personal ethical system which says that if you should buy not steal.   Further, I 
associate stealing with using, because I only stole while high or to  get high, 
but then I called it boozing so my personal connection is stealing and  get 
high go together.
As for the steps, I have friends who have done than over and over and feel  
they really benefited from them, some who felt that they were kind a neutral or 
 occasionally were harmed form the experience. I go to meeting of folks  20 
plus years sober who never touch the steps (sober agnostics).  They  don't, as 
I do not, believe in higher powers who remove shortcoming or have a  will for 
me.  The sure are not "dry drunks" though. It really is whatever  works I 
guess.  Many people on this list practice a form of harm reduction  where they 
remove the most harmful drugs, but continue to smoke weed,   other also trip on 
shrooms or X. they have removed the greatest harm in their  lives. There are 
some also on the list who are in the tough posistion of  removing the harm off 
addiction while still dealing with chronic pain, sometimes  still using low 
doses of opiates. That is tough.
So we have the whole spectrum here from 12 step to harm reduction.   One 
amazing thing on this list is that the various views coexist in general  peace.  
Occasional flare ups occur, but for the most part we can exist with  our 
Sorry so long a post!
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