[Ibogaine] Why tink flipped -or- an attempt at apologising and explaining...

Matthew Shriver matt at itsupport.net
Thu Aug 4 19:50:14 EDT 2005

Yeah I think addicts really get that whole really wanting something while
really not wanting it simultaneously thing.  I know that all my thoughts are
mine, not just the bad ones so to speak, but I have to be careful which ones
I give my attention to, and even more importantly, which ones I choose to
believe.  I've heard addicts described as "ego maniacs with inferiority
complexes" based on a general tendency to have either overly grandiose
thoughts or blatantly self defeating ones and I can certainly relate to that
sort of thing.


As to the whole spiritual path thing, I sort of see it as I see everything
else these days; it's a matter of perspective.  From one perspective a force
that gives rise to life, that inspires love, that permeates all being, could
be called God.  But on the other hand, if everything is God and nothing is
not-God, than what meaning does the word God really have?  I think that
underlying all reality there is something that does not lend itself to
conceptualization, logical understand, and description by means of words.
Whatever that thing is, it is the thing that all religions and spiritual
paths refer to and point at, and ultimately aspire to.  God is as good a
word as any, or as bad if you like. 


I consider honesty a spiritual principle, however as you said it could just
as easily be called an ethical or moral one from another perspective.  But
there is a sort of psychic damage that occurs when I lie to or steal from my
fellow human beings, which to my mind makes honesty more than simply a moral
value.  But whatever the case, I'll be the first to admit that 12 step
programs don't have a monopoly on recovery.  


But to also address something Kirk said, where I live we work the twelve
steps over and over again so there really isn't an end; maybe they do it
differently elsewhere.  The way I have heard it explained is that as you
work the steps you raise your consciousness and when you come back around to
start them again, they look different from the new consciousness level you
have (hopefully) attained to from the last go around.  For example, I myself
am almost done with my first time through and I am almost painfully aware of
just how much expectations are interfering with my peace and serenity.  I
almost always get riled when I make a plan and reality comes along with it's
own ideas about how things should go.  So I expect my next cut at the steps
to involve looking closely at that stuff.  The steps (at least in NA) are
about dealing with this thing called addiction, in all of the ways it
manifests, not just the drug use part.




From: UUSEAN at aol.com [mailto:UUSEAN at aol.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 10:26 AM
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Why tink flipped -or- an attempt at apologising and


In a message dated 8/4/2005 10:02:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
matt at itsupport.net writes:

Despite what my head tells me, I seem to
recall that my lowest most unhappy point was when I was selling dope for my
dealer, so the heroin was cheap and easy and I had extra money for crack so
I was loaded constantly.  And in the midst of the greatest abundance of
drugs I have ever known I wanted to die.


Hi Matt,


To my way of thinking your head is reminding you of reality too when you
remember how it was really was, like what you typed above.   I have spent
the last year learning to hear the voices in my head. (outside of therapy
this sounds really strange.:-)  Part of really wanted to quit shooting while
other parts could not picture life without drugs...all in the same head.


As for the spiritual path's effectiveness...I have seen that those who click
with spiritual methods do really well in 12 step programs.  Part of my
recovery has kind of been the opposite, accepting that I really don't
believe in higher powers and that 12 step groups will be of little help to
me.  So it seems to me from observation that what is effective varies with
each individual.  Also, sometimes what is refereed to as spiritual could
also be called ethical or moral.  I do find that any day I don't steal or
deal drugs, it is easier to stay clean that day.

Probably a matter partly of association. Personally I don't think I could
stay clean if I were dealing H for example.


Glad your on the list and doing well Matt.  You made some really good points
in your post.

And I agree that Mindvox is a meeting of sorts from time to time. Other
times it really defies description.




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