[ibogaine] question about livers and ibogaine
bcalabrese at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 20 11:58:22 EST 2004
Here is my 2 cents on Livers and Ibo, pain issues, some meds that do strange things (to me)
Ibogaine will not do damage to a liver however a damaged liver may cause problems in metabolizing ibogaine (to nor-ibogaine).
As far as I know any liver enzyme testing typically would be done before getting to any treatment provider (if they do of course), it doesn't do much good to get there and and not be able to do ibogaine.
Generally most people with liver damage including Hep C can safely take ibogaine even with elevated liver enzyme levels, over 2X normal I would be extra careful watching them on a test dose bring it down a bit to start, over 3X normal they should either not have it done or done very carefully, as in closely monitored, a smaller dose could be used and/or increase the dose a few hundred mg's at a time and watch them. If there were severe liver damage one should still be able to use small amounts of ibogaine safely, it may not be an instant "detox" but even a couple hundred mg's will help cut withdrawals and continued small doses can be given over several days time.
Then there is the over-all physical condition to consider, is the person pretty healthy otherwise or is their overall health poor. Are they currently addicted or un-addicted and want to try ibogaine (with liver damage) and what is the task (to stop smoking perhaps, or just check the stuff out), Often a little tune-up dose that even experienced ibo people find to have a lot more of a kick (if they are clean at the time) than they expected is about 350mg. It is HIGHLY LIKELY that you could try a dose at least at this level. Though you are unlikely to OD while on pain meds at prescription doses I wouldn't take any or lighten it up - nothing with Tylenol in it or Codeine. If you are on pain meds and try ibogaine, it is highly likely to be more disgusting and with fewer visions/different/darker. IMO, IMO, IMO, more likely than not. The doses also accumulate, if you were off meds and did a low dose and say a few weeks later another, you would be more sensitive. If you were trying to
detox, didn't do enough ibo, did it again and again that way, you would just get use to continued "using" after doing ibo, you would be less sensitive to its anti-addictive properties (in your head anyway). I don't know about doing ibo while on meds, I just never did it while on any or near the time I was.
So for instance if someone was addicted, had a bad liver they MAY be able to do 10mg safer than a full dose, it will still detox, this could be followed by another 10-12mg dose after - it is likely the patient would be overall healthier after and can take slightly more. Doing it that way will tend to split the effects of ibogaine more into DOSE1 does the physical addiction, dose2 starts on the head, 10mg for an active addict won't have the kick for most. What I am saying is there are adjustments that can be made - ie feed someone 100mg at a time to keep the WD symptoms more tolerable or combine it with a weaning, but not likely on the emotions of a do-it-yourselfer-addict at home.
I know I am over-due, was on meds all summer. The WORST where the non-addictive ones, the AED's (Antiepileptic Drugs) really wacked me out, I am still not right. If I can get away a small ibo session would unclog my receptors, seems like I have some shit stuck some of em. A guess for me would be 3-500mg should do the trick, I am in no mood for 12mg/kg+ dose (about 800mg for me).
After taking ibo, pain meds felt different (opiates), I cared for them a lot less, it felt differently, rather indifferent to them as "drugs" to the point of disliking them. During an ibogaine session is that there is a (certain) feeling of detachment from issues, so that people "see" the issues for what they are. After doing ibo (even over a year later) that ability to observe and detach from say withdrawal or anger, to not get stuck in it (yeah, it still happens, you just see it/change it quicker/better usually), Things I use to struggle with (pain meds) are far easier, there is total control, I can use a lot less pain meds both because tolerence is lower from ibo and the more measured application of pain meds (ie do not spike blood levels), I have discovered the concept of AS NEEDED is different than the one I grew up with, so I need less. It is easier for me to see when a pain med will help and when it won't, sometimes I have to tell myself to take something, less often not to.
Another for instance was the end of this summer when the pain eased up (and something else broke, of course!) I felt the pain meds were DISGUSTING, I couldn't help but stop (oxycontin). Had used on and off pain meds since but near zero impulse to take another pill for anything but pain regardkess if it is in the middle of detoxing. ie I can be detoxing, say OUCH, my back hurts, take a pill (have it work) and then go on withdrawing like nothing, like a normal person. That is (for me) after multiple treatments with ibo and I do have a normal high tolerence for the discomfort of withdrawal..
Next time a doctor smiles at me and says "we are going to try you on some nice non-addictive meds", he is going to get punched in the nose.
Topamax, I didn't know where I was, stopped feeling parts of my body (side left hand) lots of visual disturbances (not un-ibo like open-eyed stuff) and it appears to have some anti-addictive effects, not unexpected for this class of drugs.I had to stop, I couldn't take the strangeness.
Lamictil, a different stangeness, the TWILIGHT ZONE, the room started moving, felt like I was going to start tripping out. BAD DRUG,seemed to make pain meds not work (I wasn't on any at the time,but after I stopped). I didn't care, so what I am clean kind of don't care, flat.It also seemed to eat the ibogaine effects in me. Usually I can put myself in ibo-space, draw on it but after the lamictil, nada. I had wild almost-cravings, wanted a cigarette, upped my coffee/sugar intake 30 times normal... Great meds, glad I am not drinking or banging things in my arms...
Sonata, a new fangled sleeping pill my former doctor gave me (instead of good old Valium), of course the stuff cost $3 bucks a pill but is much safer, it is not "controlled"...
Yeah, right, it flattened me, 45 minutes later I wake up, the strangeness begins, by 4:00 am I am having a series of short and worsening attacks, something like "SIMON SAYS, YOU ARE NOW GOING TO EXPEND 1000 CALORIES OF ENERGY, LIKE IT OR NOT. SIMON SAYS...". Thankfully I had some natural herbal product in the house that saved my ass.He is fired,I have valium - wonderful drug!!!!! And a real pain doc (I take 1/4th of a 5mg at a time on top of pain meds when it gets bad) Give me them old fashioned Rock and Roll period drugs any day, I know what I am dealing with. A lot about these new drugs is to keep people from abusing them as well as certain side effects (depression with valium overuse).
You have liver problems, injuries and other health issues (your weight/stature), pain and pain meds to consider, toss in where you are at and how much you do and of what kind of ibogaine and POOF, on that day you will have X experience, whatever it is. I never had 2 ibogaine experiences the same and never met anyone who did. In a clean person, I have seen profound realizations on as little as 12 mg, or people do maximum doses with little effect - the more fucked up you are, the more you are likely to need to get whatever job done. If you are NORMALLY a fucked up person, you are going to be a FUCKED UP PERSON who realizes it, maybe. If you are fucked up because of stuff in your life, it is likely ibogaine will facilitate getting un-fucked (up?) rather nicely.
What changed about pain meds? After ibogaine and the pain being such that I had no choice but to go on them I made certain decisions, I am gonna this and I am not gonna some other things. It is but a matter of fact that I will, no mind fucking with the meds going on but I still don't like to think about it (just do it, take for pain or not). There is no out of control, chasing pain with meds that I use to do, some kind of impulse is just gone - the pain impulse is still there unfortunately but only if it is bad, medium pain gets other meds (NSAIDS/SOMA) that i am on all the time anyway. Only right after an ibogaine session NOTHING HURTS (unless you just detoxed, maybe some kinks), usually for several days. One thing I will not do (again) is take ibogaine when I have a headache or am in pain, I once had a cluster headache during an ibogaine session, real bad... YOu have the option of taking it on your terms, even if you had a lump of scar tissue where your liver use to be 100mg of
ibogaine will do something, so what you can't metabolize it, you will get a better hit on less (LOL). My stomach just turned, yuck the stuff is disgusting.
A few last questions -
What is your height/weight?
You need to know your liver enzymes before figuring out the answer to your question.
Are you on opiates?
Obviously you are a pain patient, the question also becomes can you come off to do ibo or do you want to use ibo to bring you off - or what? Again, ibo is typically different on and off opiates.
DId you have any particular reason for wanting to use ibogaine? If not, the ibogaine will figure it out when you get there.
One other thing. it seems to get easier and easier, the body gets use to ibogaine and of course there are fewer demons to exercise, so it is easier. Ibogaine is also some really healthy stuff, it heals the body. I believe Howard reported cases of hep C remission after ibogaine. Skin becomes clear, everything feels like it was just oiled and tuned up, eyes glow - especially at your SO...
I think we already said this but take Milk Thistle product for your liver.
Preston Peet <ptpeet at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
I can't remember if I've ever asked this specifically:
How is ibogaine on the liver? Specifically, on a liver that is swollen but
so far as I know not having cirrosis but still one that is saddled with Hep
C? I am wondering simply because I do still have the desire to someday take
ibogaine, but am seriously hesitant due to my liver situation. Please, if
anyone can give me real info on the subject, if there's been any sort of
research at all into this particular point, I'd be very appreciative.
Do they test for Hep-C at IbogaTherapyHouse, and if so, is it taken into
account when deciding whether someone is eligible for treatment?
How about other places- Sara? What do you do about Hep-C patients? Do
you treat them?
Again, sorry if I've already asked this here.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sara Glatt"
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 2:09 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Jane
> Hey Carla,
> No anger from me.
> It is just about having a personal view,
> which has nothing to do with scientists and data.
> I don't hope to make you angry by expressing my view.
> No need to attack anyone, but I can't feel the Iboga tribe
> feeling especially when it is about doing it scientifically
> only, without thinking about the patient needs.
> 5 days treatment to kick a Methadone habit/orlaam will not work even if
> they jump up and down to scream at me that the treatment is the best in
> the world.
> If you keep a person that short the chance that they will relapse is
> very very big.
> It just doesn't work that way.
> Most people are so drained,so that the first thing they will do to get
> energy back IS get a bag or two.
> And that has nothing to do with how fun and joyful the 5 day treatment
> It is how you look at things what is good?
> What is good for you may not be good for another person how can you
> treat them all the same?
> People are treated like objects, for me personally isn't the way I see a
> tribe working together.
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes at yahoo.com]
> Verzonden: vrijdag 20 februari 2004 1:36
> Aan: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] Jane
> Sara I'm trying to understand what you mean. I read
> Jane's message and didn't get the same thing from it
> that you did, I only read a very kind and thoughtful
> message which I related to and agreed with.
> I've seen you post different things that nobody else
> has ever mentioned and think you have a whole
> different perspective on ibogaine treatment and all
> kinds of interesting insights but in some of your
> messages what comes across is that youre very angry. I
> don't understand at what or who?
> I know that there is a lot of anger on this list from
> time to time that explodes in all different directions
> but I don't think that in the years I've been reading
> this list that I have ever seen anyone attack or
> disrespect Howard personally. Ibogaine yes, the whole
> list yes, entheogens yes, pot yes, Marc Emery, yes,
> Patrick, yes, Dr. Mash, yes, you name it, yes but
> Howard himself I can't think of one time.
> What are you talking about?
> I don't think anyone has ever denied that Howard is
> the first person to openly talk about what ibogaine
> did for him. They may have known what ibogaine does 10
> years sooner but I don't think the CIA was publishing
> their results like Dave Hunter mentioned ;-)
> Carla B
> --- Sara Glatt wrote:
> > "Not one single one of us "owns" ibogaine, the idea
> > of it, or the
> > realization that it can implement an addiction
> > "cure, "or the best way
> > to do so, or the hope that such knowledge might
> > bring. I know I'm
> > preaching to the initiated, but it seems relevant to
> > remember this. We
> > are all both humbled and honored by the work of each
> > other, because
> > everyone who has tasted the fruit has known the
> > unknowable, and
> > therefore should profess what their initiation has
> > shown them, for the
> > good of the tribe.....
> > Hey Jane I can't agree with you on that.
> > I have nothing to do with the work of other people.
> > They may use the idea of repeated dosages in
> > Vancouver but that isn't
> > their idea to start with and there is no place for
> > arrogance.
> > The best treatment in the world doesn't exist.
> > It is all depended on the state of mind of the
> > person who is taking the
> > treatment and not directly with the treatment
> > provider. The treatment
> > can be all for free or not. The motivation of the
> > patient is the only
> > thing that counts.
> > I have given the same kind of treatment to different
> > people but the
> > reaction was totally deferent.
> > However Howard found that ibogaine works to
> > eliminate opiate
> > withdrawals,
> > No one else did.
> > Yes, no one own Ibogaine but the founder should be
> > respected
> > I can't feel that in your writing.
> > "0302122190
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