[ibogaine] About NA after ibogaine. Long message PLEASE read!

Vector Vector vector620022002 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 22 03:23:32 EDT 2004

I think the best sum up of the 12 steps which is psychotic but funny is
right here


Beside some reporter threatening to implicate mindvox in the "bushian
cover up" is a great sum up of the 12 steps. Look at "exhibit E" in
relation to the other exhibits around it :)

It's written by NA :)


--- Carla Barnes <carlambarnes at yahoo.com> wrote:

> So sorry if this goes through twice yahoo is not
> working too well tonight :-(
> Hi I didn't write this before because I wanted to say
> it a little better then I would have when I was about
> to head out the door. I know that 12 step bashing is
> its own religion especially on here and I want to say
> that I have not had a lot of luck with the 12 steps
> either except after doing ibogaine the last time I did
> it I've been clean a little more then a year right
> now. Some of the time when I was freaking out I did go
> to the groups and once in a while it made me feel
> better to have someone to talk to. I would have tried
> the smart or rational recovery groups but there aren't
> any here and I am really not all gung ho with recovery
> that I was going to start one.
> I really to be honest find this place more useful for
> clearing my head and finding people to talk with then
> anywhere I've ever been. It's like a cross between a
> temple, information network I don't even know what
> it's been said better then I can say it already but it
> is full of people from all over the world who don't
> say they're not judgemental but really aren't! I've
> never found that before. I have been here almost since
> it started but way back then it was not this huge
> group like it is now it was much smaller and ibogaine
> wasn't everywhere like it's starting to be.
> What I read and even looked up are the articles
> Patrick was writing for Heroin Times when he first got
> clean. I asked that someone collect them and put them
> online yearssssss ago and after 2 years or so Patrick
> finally got around to it ;-)
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/Articles/HeroinTimes.html
> I love them because they are written while he is
> getting clean for the first time ever in his life and
> it's so cool to watch this unfolding and happening for
> two years. What it starts filled with is so much rage
> and hate from somebody who is obviously so smart and
> sooooo mad.
> What's interesting is that Patrick you never once do
> that about heroin. What you go off on all over the
> place is the war on drugs and especially drug
> treatment and the 12 steps.
> When you end writing though your last 4 articles for
> Heroin Times were much calmer and less insane with
> hate. You went so far as to write a article with Dave
> Hunter about how to make the most of 12 step groups! I
> know Dave, you don't do the 12 steps anymore either
> and I understand why and really neither do I, I only
> used the groups for support which strangely has
> shifted to happening on this group instead.
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/KeepingClean.html
> What I am saying is both you Patrick who are a walking
> anti 12-step group all by yourself and Dave, did write
> a sane article about how to get the most out of the 12
> steps. The two of you did this and I give both of you
> so much credit for that, you especially Patrick
> because you admitted you couldn't do it because you
> never found anything good about the 12 steps so you
> did it with Dave!
> What I want to say is I know the 12 steps don't work
> for almost anyone here, not even me, but they did help
> me at different times and when I left the groups you
> know what I did I really did take what I found useful
> there, kept the tools that worked for me and then left
> the rest, including the groups themselves.
> Which reminds me, Dr. Moraes who is another brilliant
> 200 IQ junkie who hates everybody, loves you. You
> should put this on Mindvox somewhere.
> http://heroinhelper.com/angry/wonderful_things.shtml
> This was the version before Dr. Moraes made it less
> psychotic? ;-) I loved this one it was one of my
> favorite messages here of all time.
> Carla B
> [Editor's Note: This piece was written before 9-11-01.
> Because of the events of that day, things have changed
> a little. Now it seems we have a new "shared enemy",
> but drug users are singled out even more in this new
> world view. It takes a cold, calloused culture to
> label a drug addict a terrorist. Drug addicts are
> already beaten down further than any civilized culture
> would permit. This piece addresses this fact. We add
> only that things are not the same as when this piece
> was written. Things are worse. Dr. Francis Moraes.]
> Wonderful things I have Learned from having been
> Fortunate Enough,
> to spend most of my Life at the Receiving end, of the
> War on Drugs
> I am your War Machine, I am your Ghetto Scene
> Copyright © 2000, Patrick Karel Kroupa
> (digital at phantom.com)
> All Rights Reserved
> "I Pledge Allegiance to the Drug War
> of the United States of America,
> And to the Hypocrisy for Which it Stands,
> One Notion, Under Czar, Indefensible,
> With Incarceration and Injustice for All."
> -- (http://www.tompaine.com)
> The War on Drugs has taught me that I belong to the
> last tribe of niggers on the planet; drug users -- an
> entire strata of society that it's alright to
> demonize, hate, harass and incarcerate for the crime
> of altering my state of consciousness against the
> government's wishes.
> Because I am guilty of this crime, I have no rights.
> I may be detained, searched without cause,
> disrespected, have my property confiscated; and on
> that one occasion out of one thousand, that I'm not
> fast enough, aware enough, or just tired . . . I will
> be sentenced to torture.
> Where whatever branch of law enforcement I am subject
> to in that particular instance, will throw me into a
> cell where I may sweat, shake, vomit, and experience
> withdrawal without medical attention.  Apparently this
> is okay, because I'm just a junkie, and therefore do
> not have basic human rights.
> This'll continue until I get before a judge and any
> halfway competent lawyer has the "case" against me
> dismissed . . . because almost invariably, the "case"
> begins with illegal search and seizure and a violation
> of my "rights."
> This is fine, because I'm white and have usually had
> access to money; this means I am a better person, and
> might be worthy of reasonable legal representation.
> Therefore, I will not be joining the hundreds of
> people I have personally known, whose fate is to be
> ground up by the system, and dumped into prisons --
> for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong
> time.
> In other words, a drug sweep, where the local branch
> of TNT has a monthly quota to meet, and will shake you
> down if you're unfortunate enough to be the wrong
> color, driving the wrong car, or they're just in a bad
> mood.
> Obviously, people who use drugs are a menace to
> society and should be thrown into prison with an
> interesting variety of violent offenders -- except, if
> at all possible, with longer sentences -- because,
> after all, the violent offenders just have some issues
> and things to work out, the drug users aren't even
> human beings.
> There's nothing more damaging to the entire fabric of
> society than a bunch of people who just smoked pot,
> descending on a donut shop all at once;  or a heroin
> addict nodding out on a couch.
> If I want to stop using heroin, it's okay with the
> government if I take methadone -- a narcotic
> analgesic, far more addictive than heroin, but legal
> -- although really, I shouldn't complain; federal and
> state regulations for dispensing methadone are
> relatively enlightened.  It is not yet necessary to be
> tattooed, branded, or relocated to a methadone
> maintenance camp, upon admission.
> It's just fine if I take buprenorphine, it's even a
> wonderful idea if I get into a LAAM maintenance
> program.  The fact that LAAM may cause Q-T
> prolongation, torsades, and kill me, is all right.
> Because, it's legal.  And after all, it's just another
> sedative, it's not something that's going to cause any
> radical paradigm shift to take place.
> Should I ever require medical attention for any period
> of time longer than a few hours round-trip through an
> ER to have something stitched-up, making it necessary
> for me to inform the attending doctors that I am on
> narcotic analgesics; I will be treated like human
> garbage.
> While in the hospital it will take roughly 45 phone
> calls, 6 feet of forms signed in triplicate, and 3
> days minimum; for them to finally agree to dose me
> with methadone at anywhere near the levels I need just
> to avoid acute opiate withdrawal -- by which time, in
> addition to whatever other problem I had that caused
> me to enter their facility in the first place, I will
> BE in acute opiate withdrawal.
> If I ever make the personal choice to stop using
> narcotics, the options presented to me will be a
> series of medical professionals -- touting the latest
> miracle-treatments which don't work;
> addictionologists; and other drug experts, who -- for
> the most part -- don't know a fucking thing about
> addiction; never having used any drugs.  They have
> however, read a lot of books.
> Reading those same books for yourself, will eventually
> give you the ability to sum up almost all current
> knowledge about the psychobiological causes of
> addiction in about two sentences, "we have a lot of
> theories, but really, we know almost nothing about
> addiction.  We don't even know why people become
> addicted in the first place -- when others with the
> same genetics, environment, and psychological make-up
> do not; or why those who get off drugs, manage this."
> Unless I leave the country and pay ludicrous amounts
> of money for it -- something which most drug-dependent
> individuals have no way of affording -- I will be
> denied access to the most promising breakthrough in
> the history of drug-treatment; namely ibogaine.
> For all the smoke and mirrors, game playing, and lip
> service paid, to the variety of reasons why ibogaine
> isn't of much interest to anyone -- except those who
> would like to stop being addicted to addictive drugs
> -- the bottom line is, it's a hallucinogen, and
> hallucinogens have a plethora of negative
> side-effects.  Such as, for instance, the 60's.  We
> don't want that.
> All entheogens are bad.  Entheogens present the
> possibility for radical paradigm shifts to take place,
> and the user may make some revelatory discoveries
> about the nature of their reality.  This is super-bad,
> what's much better is just going to a meeting and
> sharing.
> Most of the 12-step programs have turned into
> something that nearly resembles an interesting parody
> of what they originally were -- extremely old eastern
> concepts for dismantling ego, specifically rewritten
> to apply to drug-dependent individuals who are
> acclimated to western culture -- and become this cult
> of eternal powerlessness, where you can participate in
> an never-ending circle-jerk of sitting around and
> complaining about things; fight an endless battle
> against a mysterious disease and never again take any
> chemical additives or personal responsibility for your
> actions.  Okay, having said that, let's all go out
> into the parking lot and chain smoke, drink coffee and
> eat candy bars...  Say, is it time for my meds yet?
> If I somehow manage to get off heroin and do the one
> thing that actually works -- establish or
> re-establish, my own connection to spirituality,
> cosmic consciousness, God, whatever you'd like to call
> it -- ingesting my sacrament is against the law.
> Entheogens, crack, heroin, alcohol -- err, no wait,
> not alcohol, alcohol is good for you -- it's all the
> same shit; just another drug.  I am once again either
> forced to leave the country, or commit a felony every
> time I feel a need to go to church.  Apparently I have
> freedom of religion so long as my religion involves
> hangin' out and talking about the experience, instead
> of actually having it for myself.
> The War on Drugs does not work.  It cannot work.  It
> is a war against human nature, genetics, evolution,
> and the attempt to take away my basic freedom as an
> individual to select my own state of consciousness.
> Because apparently I am not an adult and not fit to
> make these choices; therefore those who know what's
> best for me must attempt to legislate my state of
> mind.  This is not fascism, this is simply the
> government looking out for my best interests and
> ensuring that I am fully vested in whatever paradigm
> they wish to sell.
> Despite the fact that it cannot work, it's important
> to invest just a few hundred trillion more dollars in
> the War on Drugs, because we're running out of enemies
> to hate... that whole entire Cold War thing has sorta
> faded away; there doesn't seem to be an immediate need
> to Enforce Democracy in any middle-eastern country;
> and the War on Drugs serves to galvanize people, gives
> them emotional investment, and presents a clear-cut
> RIGHT and WRONG.  It's important to have a clear-cut
> RIGHT and WRONG that doesn't require anybody to think.
> Thinking is dangerous and undesirable.
> Besides, we have this theory that the War on Drugs is
> "winnable."  This is obvious to anyone who looks at
> the results to date.  There is no lack of drugs,
> basically, anywhere.  The number of people using drugs
> has not decreased.  While the street price of drugs
> hasn't gone up, the purity levels have steadily risen.
>   However, hey, we sho' do got a lotta people in
> prison!  In fact, America has more people filling its
> prisons, than any other country on the planet.  We
> must be doing something very right, this is great...
> Especially if you're in the private prison industry.
> In addition to all this, if drug prohibition were
> repealed, the economies of entire third-world
> countries which are currently propped up by all this,
> would suffer a severe blow; perhaps collapsing.  And,
> of course, the people who profit by large-scale
> distribution of materials -- which are essentially
> worthless, and have had their value artificially
> inflated to being worth more than gold dust, because
> they're illegal -- would have to go find something
> else to do.  Like, for instance, go get a job, or
> enter the slave-trading industry.
> Aside from all the noise, we actually have no real
> problem with drugs.  They perpetuate the powerlessness
> of the poor, they give everybody on all sides of the
> issues sumthin' to do, and perhaps best of all; there
> are a lot of people who once had the potential to
> effect change, cause paradigm shifts to take place,
> and used to be a real pain in the ass -- who have
> voluntarily taken themselves out and self-destructed,
> all thanks to drugs.  What's not to like?
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
> =[\
>   [%] Ibogaine List Commands:  
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> =[/

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

More information about the Ibogaine mailing list