[ibogaine] Religion and Mindvox was Re: [ibogaine] question

crownofthorns at hushmail.com crownofthorns at hushmail.com
Sun Aug 8 08:45:54 EDT 2004


Very deep. Thanks Howard, to all of you and 
mostly you vector for cutting and pasting all 
that because I would have never looked it up 
:-) It all makes a strange kind of perfect sense 
now, symbol of chaos it is, very appropriate for 
here, us, ibogaine :-)

Peace out and get a chaos symbol :-)
Curtis

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 05:37:15 -0700 HSLotsof at aol.com wrote:
>After Ibogaine, nothing is weird.  Even getting close to it is 
>transformative.  The more you accept the magic and the belief in
>it, that is the belief in 
>yourself in time and space the easier transformation becomes.  Transformation
>>
>happens on a continual basis.  
>
>Howard
>
>In a message dated 8/8/04 7:28:14 AM, vector620022002 at yahoo.com
>writes:
>
>>Thanks! But I didn't say it! :) I'm cutting and pasting the answers
>to
>>what the chaos symbol means. I don't claim to get all of it, but
>this
>>whole place is cool as fuck :) 
>>
>>Maybe it's changing me and I'm getting weirder, but I don't find
>>Mindvox or any of the people here weird anymore. Interesting yes.
>>Different for sure :)
>>
>>.:vector:.
>>
>>--- HSLotsof at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Ibogaine is art.
>>> 
>>> Beautifully said vector.
>>> 
>>> Howard
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 8/8/04 6:21:34 AM, vector620022002 at yahoo.com
>>> writes:
>>> 
>>> > Am I becoming tech support? I want a @mindvox.com account already!
>>> :)
>>> >
>>> > Carla whatever it is that you're reading here you go from the
>first
>>> 10
>>> > results on the first page of google.
>>> >
>>> > .:vector:.
>>> >
>>> > Peter Carroll: "If you want a one-line definition with which
>most
>>> > Chaosists would not disagree, then I offer the following: Chaosists
>>> > usually accept the meta-belief that belief itself is only a
>tool
>>> for
>>> > achieving effects; it is not an end in itself."
>>> >
>>> > Meta-belief is an important concept in Chaos Magic. It is the
>idea
>>> that
>>> > belief is nothing more than a state of mind, and as such, can
>be
>>> > manipulated by the will. Belief is a psychological state that
>can
>>> be
>>> > deliberately self-manipulated, although it has the power to
>shape
>>> our
>>> > own reality, and sometimes other people's reality as well.
>It is
>>> the
>>> > means, not the end; the vehicle, not the destination.
>>> >
>>> > The practice of meta-belief confers an awful freedom and an
>awful
>>> > responsibility. Practicing the temporary adoption of an obsessive
>>> > belief system that allows for the possibility of accomplishing
>>> specific
>>> > effects, and then the abandonment of that belief system upon
>the
>>> > completion of the work. Subsequent, and even contradictory
>belief
>>> > systems are adopted in turn as need or desire may dictate.
>To do
>>> this
>>> > (and not go completely insane) it is of paramount importance
>that
>>> no
>>> > one particular set of beliefs is ever accepted as being ultimately
>>> > true.
>>> >
>>> > The essence of magic is non-verbal and personally unique. The
>key
>>> is
>>> > the imagination, and the doors are the altered states of
>>> consciousness.
>>> > You can meditate, burn all the candles and chant all the
>>> incantations
>>> > you want, but if your mind isn't transported to another place
>in
>>> the
>>> > process, it isn't going to amount to much.
>>> >
>>> > There are myriad ways to alter one's conscious perceptions
>in
>>> different
>>> > directions, and part of the journey is learning how your
>>> consciousness
>>> > functions and how to alter it in accordance with your intention.
>>> >
>>> > Like a method actor, a Chaos Magician seeks to circumvent everyday
>>> > reality and suspend disbelief. To do this he or she uses the
>tools
>>> of
>>> > the actor: setting, costumes, props, words, sounds, and especially
>>> what
>>> > Stanislavsky called emotional memory. Any powerful, transformative
>>> > experience can be used to tap into the emotional memory, including
>>> sex,
>>> > pain, confusion, elation, disgust and ecstasy -- especially
>in
>>> > paradoxical combinations.
>>> >
>>> > As a result, Chaos Magic is magic without limitations. Chaos
>magic
>>> is
>>> > not a new system, or a rehash of older systems, or any kind
>of
>>> system
>>> > at all. It's a new attitude. It's a different way of looking
>at the
>>> Art
>>> > of Magic -- as an expression of Art above all other considerations.
>>> > Like so many Artists, Chaos Mages tend toward an attitude of
>>> elitism,
>>> > since a great part of the creation of Art is the pursuit of
>>> excellence,
>>> > and pride in oneself and one's creations when excellence is
>>> achieved.
>>> > An elitist attitude (as long as it's balanced with compassion
>and
>>> > doesn't desend into bigotry) is forgivable in the Artist, for
>>> without
>>> > it no great work of Art would ever be realized.
>>> >
>>> > The practice of Chaos Magic can be destablizing, because it's
>>> designed
>>> > to deconstruct belief. Like psychedelic drugs, it can drastically
>>> alter
>>> > your reality. So it's not for the squeamish, or for those who
>fear
>>> what
>>> > lurks in their deepest selves, for it is from those deep selves
>>> that
>>> > the Chaos Mage forges his or her gods and demons.
>>> >
>>> > Such dualistic concepts as "white" or "black" magic are not
>>> applicable
>>> > to Chaos Magic, at least not in the sense of being good or
>evil.
>>> Magic
>>> > is a force, like electromagnetism, and has no inherent moral
>>> qualities.
>>> > Peter Carroll wrote in Liber Null, "The end results of either
>path
>>> are
>>> > likely not to be dissimilar, for the paths meet in a way that
>is
>>> > impossible to describe. The so-called 'middle way', or path
>of
>>> > knowledge, consisting of the mere second hand acquisition of
>ideas,
>>> is
>>> > an excuse to do neither and leads nowhere." As a result, Chaos
>>> > Magicians tend toward pushing the extremes, finding balance
>by
>>> swinging
>>> > from pole to pole, rather than seeking "moderation."
>>> >
>>> > --- Carla Barnes <carlambarnes at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> --- HSLotsof at aol.com wrote:
>>> >>> The Bwiti be with you and protect you and love you.
>>> >>> The rest of us will
>>> >>> follow.  This is the chapel.  We await the telling
>>> >>> of your adventure.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Howard
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> What Howard wrote made me think about something that
>>> >> I've wondered about before but never wrote to the
>>> >> list. I've spent probably 3 hours looking through
>>> >> Mindvox which I've done before so many times and
>>> >> always get the same feeling from it which is that
>>> >> there are so many pieces in it that go into all these
>>> >> directions and some of it is really funny and some of
>>> >> it is beautiful, some of it is ugly and obnoxious but
>>> >> it's like this strange temple and every time I look
>>> >> there is some piece somewhere that's changed, so some
>>> >> of you are obviously doing something with it.
>>> >>
>>> >> This one tag line at the top caught my attention and
>>> >> made me keep thinking and reading through links
>>> >> tonight.
>>> >>
>>> >> Psychedelic Temple of The Apocalypse
>>> >>
>>> >> Then someone whos name I've forgot and I'm sorry :-(
>>> >> wrote that everything Patrick is doing is shamanism,
>>> >> then there have been so many messages to the list
>>> >> before about this but the one I remember when someone
>>> >> asked what Mindvox is a long time ago, the answer was
>>> >> 'Patrick's brain blown through a cuisanart' and that
>>> >> made me laugh but I'm not laughing anymore, I keep
>>> >> thinking about it and don't understand because to use
>>> >> even another quote and I'm sorry I'll stop with
>>> >> quotes, is 'Mindvox is a video game for
>>> >> schizophrenics'
>>> >>
>>> >> What I mean is even something as small as those tag
>>> >> lines. I can sit there and click them for hours which
>>> >> I have done when I'm stoned and they keep coming with
>>> >> new ones. Are there hundreds of them, thousands? The
>>> >> whole site is huge, it looks like something that took
>>> >> a lot of effort and time to make and what is the
>>> >> purpose for it exactly? I mean the main Mindvox site
>>> >> itself not Mindvox Ibogaine and the list, which are
>>> >> beautiful but have a definite reason for being here.
>>> >>
>>> >> Then I keep reading a clicking and keep getting more
>>> >> questions. The main Mindvox logo is a really beautiful
>>> >> psychedelic symbol of chaos. Then I click open
>>> >> ibogaine.mindvox.com and Dave Hunter is painting
>>> >> purple symbols of chaos, then that religion in
>>> >> slovenia I'm sorry I don't know the official name or
>>> >> is it Sacrament of transition? Has another symbol of
>>> >> chaos.
>>> >>
>>> >> The 'Purple Shit' Patrick talks about, now it's
>>> >> appearing in Dave Hunter's art, it shows up on Erowid
>>> >> dedicated to Patrick and Howard:
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.erowid.org/culture/art/artists_h/art_hunter_dave.shtml
>>> >>
>>> >> At first it was only Patrick doing this, but it's like
>>> >> it is spreading all over the place, symbols of chaos
>>> >> and purple, so what I am really wondering is what does
>>> >> all of it mean? What are you doing exactly, when I
>>> >> look up the symbol of chaos it has so many different
>>> >> answers too, the closest thing the writing agrees on
>>> >> is that its a combination of white and black magic and
>>> >> a non religion, non belief system, individual
>>> >> spirituality, which makes as much sense as Mindvox
>>> >> does. Which makes no sense. The rest of the writing
>>> >> agrees on nearly nothing, it can't even agree on where
>>> >> the symbol came from or what it means at all!
>>> >>
>>> >> What I'm very respectfully asking is, what does it all
>>> >> mean to all of you? Patrick? You are very smart, very
>>> >> funny, but don't ever answer anything. Dave Hunter
>>> >> wrote a answer once to the list when he started
>>> >> painting the 'Purple Shit' about god through
>>> >> photoshop.
>>> >>
>>> >> The last thing I read was Trajectories which I love
>>> >> and always blows me away because it's such a huge
>>> >> combination of everything that says everything at once
>>> >> while saying nothing, I read it and feel like I just
>>> >> took acid and I don't mean to kiss your ass Patrick,
>>> >> youre a really brilliant writer but is this how your
>>> >> brain is working now, most of the time, all the time?
>>> >> Its like you are connecting everything to everything
>>> >> all at once.
>>> >>
>>> >> What does all of it mean? I'm right back to what
>>> >> Howard wrote about this being a Temple and it feels
>>> >> that way which is a great feeling but I've been here 3
>>> >> years at least now and I still don't get it and feel
>>> >> like I spend a lot of my time inside this mystery
>>> >> thinking that all of it will make sense someday but
>>> >> none of it ever does, it only gets weirder and keeps
>>> >> spreading!
>>> >>
>>> >> I'd still like to know what is the deal with the
>>> >> symbol of chaos? What does it mean? Since nowhere I go
>>> >> online where I look it up agrees with any other
>>> >> definition of it, what does it mean to you Patrick?
>>> >> You started up with it and now it's all over the place
>>> >> so obviously it must mean something to your friends
>>> >> who are painting it and putting it everywhere,
>>> >> what?????
>>> >>
>>> >> I think what I'm saying is thanks to all of you and
>>> >> love to everyone on the list :-) :-) And a lot of love
>>> >> to Preston!!!!! :-)
>>> >>
>>> >> Carla B
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/
>>> >> staticpage%3fpagename=Trajectories
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Copyright © 2001-2004, Patrick Karel Kroupa
>>> >> All Rights Reserved
>>> >>
>>> >> REINTEGRATION
>>> >>
>>> >> It was a bright day in the middle of the night, and I
>>> >> was walking down this road which was like an
>>> >> escalator. Then I saw these people, and kept trying to
>>> >> talk to them, but already it was too late, and my
>>> >> watch was running backwards. And these midgets in
>>> >> latex tutu's starting scampering across the ceiling
>>> >> which dissolved into an ocean, and I was drowning . .
>>> >> . but then at the bottom of the ocean I walked across
>>> >> the floor and opened this oyster which had a pearl in
>>> >> it; and I felt all warm and fuzzy, and then a meadow
>>> >> appeared . . .
>>> >>
>>> >> . . . and I understood, and wow, this is so cool, it's
>>> >> just like love and sunshine, and puppies, and
>>> >> ice-cream, and sex, except kinda like all at once... I
>>> >> never knew I loved having sex with puppies while
>>> >> eating ice-cream in the sunshine-- err, back that up a
>>> >> sentence or two, that's not exactly what I meant. And
>>> >> as I thought that, I realized that maybe my thinking,
>>> >> was all thunk out, so this chasm blows open and I was
>>> >> in a graveyard . . . after I got done clubbing the
>>> >> baby-seals, it seemed that it was beyond too late --
>>> >> even though time had stopped running backwards, and
>>> >> started moving sideways in spirals -- I have an
>>> >> appointment to give blood, seems I hafta go face-first
>>> >> through this lawnmower, and then I'm scheduled to tour
>>> >> at least 3 layers of hell before lunch, and--
>>> >>
>>> >> . . . and my spirit guide held my hand, and we walked
>>> >> on the water, over to where all my dead relatives were
>>> >> lined-up; they delivered a stern anti-drug lecture,
>>> >> while showing me ScArY MoViES of what my life would be
>>> >> like if I didn't stop doing drugs. But then God came
>>> >> down from heaven, gave me a big kiss, and dissolved
>>> >> into this shower of golden-light, and I knew that all
>>> >> the answers I was seeking through drugs were always
>>> >> inside of me, and I was healed.
>>> >>
>>> >> Furthermore, to Clarify:
>>> >>
>>> >> Now obviously, this explains why Gestalt is mostly
>>> >> correct, EMDR works some of the time, and Primal
>>> >> Therapy has the right idea. Schroedinger saw some
>>> >> light in the darkness, Neitzsche saw darkness in the
>>> >> light, and Hitler, Jesus, and Max Planck discussed it
>>> >> over tea one day, with the Mad Hatter acting as an
>>> >> independent peer-review committee, and Dostoyevsky
>>> >> taking down the minutes -- but he wasn't paying
>>> >> attention a lotta the time; this is okay 'cuz Godel
>>> >> had a parabolic mic aimed at the whole-entire
>>> >> scenario. Also, furthermore, this is only accurate on
>>> >> every other Tuesday, of leap-years, unless Peter
>>> >> Melchior manages to reintegrate John Lilly, and
>>> >> Timothy Leary gives him some therapy.
>>> >>
>>> >> Because sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, unless
>>> >> Freud didn't say that, uhm, what did he say again, oh
>>> >> yeah, "you people are all basically just totally
>>> >> fucked up. Now, who took my cocaine, and where the
>>> >> hell did my niece go... I'd call Sherlock Holmes to
>>> >> figure this out, but he's off somewhere banging-up
>>> >> speedballs. He's repressed anyway, and really needs to
>>> >> get laid." Of course, this is only metaphorically a
>>> >> parable, because Sherlock Holmes was a real person,
>>> >> whereas Freud was a strung-out champion of law and
>>> >> order, only in books, and on the astral planes.
>>> >>
>>> >> But anyway, as anyone can see this only works on the
>>> >> primary and secondary levels of quaternary dualism,
>>> >> unless it doesn't. Christian Science, the Koran,
>>> >> Buddhism, Shivaism, Scientology, and the Muslims, are
>>> >> seeing at least part of the spectrum of possibility,
>>> >> except when they're not. But it really doesn't matter
>>> >> because Socrates knew it -- tho' he didn't write it
>>> >> down -- Plato (who was a whiny little fuckhead)
>>> >> plagiarized it, and Aristotle retrieved and refined
>>> >> it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Strings are a good theory, but sometimes Viagra works
>>> >> better, because as Heisenberg explained, the
>>> >> Uncertainty Principle doesn't really start to throb
>>> >> unless the strange attractor is wearing a mini and
>>> >> heels, in which case non-linear dynamics will cause
>>> >> the butterfly with broken wings to nose-dive, this
>>> >> will make Voltaire depressed a lot of the time; but
>>> >> ultimately it's all-good because when Freud dropped
>>> >> the cigar, Fromm picked it up and re-lit it, Sartre
>>> >> stuck it in his mouth but never inhaled, and Jung
>>> >> understood all of it, in its entire totality, some of
>>> >> the time -- even though he didn't smoke cigars.
>>> >>
>>> >> Baudelaire and Rimbaud lived it, Shelley kinda flopped
>>> >> around a lot and drowned, but his wife nailed it;
>>> >> Byron also nailed a lot of things -- lacking a
>>> >> camcorder and a web site, on occasion he even wrote
>>> >> some of them down. Tesla and Willhelm Reich had it all
>>> >> written out in invisible ink on SekRet DocumenTz,
>>> >> hidden under an orgone accumulator, until THEY, THEM,
>>> >> and THOSE PEOPLE, ruined everything. Escher took the
>>> >> remnants and made a moebious-strip out of them. Once
>>> >> the colors got all smeared, C.S. Lewis and Dr. Seuss
>>> >> summed it all up in one cohesive whole, understandable
>>> >> by any child; however, when most adults try to
>>> >> cross-connect the spirals of rainbows, they just end
>>> >> up with mud.
>>> >>
>>> >> Lately though, I'm starting to have a lot of dreams
>>> >> about sex. This means its time to take a really long
>>> >> plane-ride. In conclusion, black-lights are pretty
>>> >> groovy, but somehow -- for me anyway -- lava-lamps,
>>> >> just get real old, real fast. The 'Dead mahn --
>>> >> Yahhhhhhhh -- Uhm, I don't like the dead; it's not an
>>> >> option dude, they're the Dead Mahn, yahhhhh! -- Uhm,
>>> >> okay, I guess, do you have any Nine Inch Nails?
>>> >>
>>> >> Obviously,
>>> >>
>>> >> The MindVox servers are located 100 feet underground
>>> >> in New Mexico, Utah, and Pig's Knuckle, OH. They are
>>> >> fully distributed, entirely redundant, and completely
>>> >> recombinant. Vox is INVINCIBLE, Invisible and
>>> >> psychotic -- it enters the mind through the eye and
>>> >> spreads throughout the organism.
>>> >>
>>> >> MindVox operates on a principle similar to RADAR, but
>>> >> is highly unstable and FLYING out of everything. It
>>> >> has an array of OC3's with direct interfaces to the
>>> >> ley-lines circling the earth. Its NOC's are located at
>>> >> Stonehenge, the Bermuda Triangle, and a
>>> >> distributed-system of Lost Temples hidden at the
>>> >> earth's core. The earth is hollow, conclusive and
>>> >> fully documented proof is available in the works of
>>> >> Nazi Scientist Genius: Hans Horbiger (who should not,
>>> >> and MUST not, be confused with the Scientist in Outer
>>> >> Space), who EXPOSED the whole entire truth (in its
>>> >> complete totality). THOSE PEOPLE, sadly, just didn't
>>> >> understand.
>>> >>
>>> >> Customer Support for MindVox is located in a little
>>> >> white house with a big UPS in the West Indies, a
>>> >> small, nondescript dwelling 10km. west of Lop Buri,
>>> >> Thailand, and a SERIES of completely trashed
>>> >> apartments on the upper east side in NYC.
>>> >>
>>> >> MindVox has been used for centuries in smaller doses
>>> >> to combat fatigue and boredom, and higher ranges, as
>>> >> part of spiritual initiation rituals in the Voxer
>>> >> Religion. MindVox HCl was first made available in 1991
>>> >> and will finally be released as an unbound freebase in
>>> >> 2001. In the very near future we hope to have Vox
>>> >> available in an exciting variety of flavored
>>> >> suppositories, in an assortment of sizes, so that you
>>> >> can stick it up your ass.
>>> >>
>>> >> MindVox UNDERSTANDS that Aleister Crowley was just
>>> >> misunderstood. The Book of Coming Forth by Night and
>>> >> Doing a Lot of Coke wasn't his fault. That was his
>>> >> DISEASE, plus, also, Aiwiss made him do BAD THINGS.
>>> >> Although, to be honest, Vox loves receiving Hate Mail
>>> >> and Death Threats from Satanic Masters of the Dark
>>> >> Arts who threaten to Smite it Down if it Doesn't STOP
>>> >> mocking (who's mocking?) the Great Beast (what did we
>>> >> ever say about Marilyn Manson? He's an EXCELLENT
>>> >> musician). Deep down inside, MindVox KNOWS that these
>>> >> letters ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY and WITHOUT A DOUBT do
>>> >> NOT come from welfare-collecting, computer-twerps who
>>> >> sit on the Internet 24hrs. a day. It Fully Realizes
>>> >> its Whole Entire Future is in Grave Peril and vibrates
>>> >> inside with Tremendous Glee...
>>> >>
>>> >> MindVox was INSIDE the Bayer corporation when they
>>> >> invented the cure for coughs. It hovered briefly in
>>> >> the general vicinity of Freud when he UNVEILED the
>>> >> Whole Entire panacea for depression, but then left,
>>> >> because he made its head hurt, lots and lots. Vox
>>> >> loves, believes in, and STANDS BEHIND all B-D
>>> >> products, which make hypodermic syringes that should
>>> >> ONLY be used for IM'ing insulin -- never, ever,
>>> >> anything else . . . at all. It chooses to disbelieve
>>> >> in the Secret, Hidden Network of Iranian Gas-Station
>>> >> Owners who are nearly always out of gas, change, or
>>> >> any food product that did not expire 3 years ago. They
>>> >> do, however, have a near-endless supply of baking soda
>>> >> and brillo, plus, also, not to be forgotten, Many
>>> >> Thousands of Mysterious Glass Tubes -- which the
>>> >> super-friendly worker will hand you through the
>>> >> bulletproof glass if he KNOWS you -- which could serve
>>> >> almost ANY purpose imaginable, but are definitely,
>>> >> without a doubt, and absolutely, NOT crackpipes.
>>> >> MindVox understands this is just another conspiracy by
>>> >> the Illuminati, CIA and Black Panthers.
>>> >>
>>> >> MindVox SEES the REAL you. Yes YOU, it KNOWS that
>>> >> you're so special, you're all aglow with specialness.
>>> >> It finds you interesting, different, and totally
>>> >> unique -- it loves you, lots and lots, and wants to
>>> >> eXchange bodily fluids. Vox is sensitive -- whole
>>> >> Legions of Mental Health Experts, have PROVEN and
>>> >> EXPLAINED this -- and lies awake at night crying,
>>> >> feeling the pain of the Horrible Atrocities being
>>> >> COMMITED at the former fully robotic NeXT factory,
>>> >> where BAD PEOPLE are making the Automation do
>>> >> TERRIBLE, Unspeakable, THINGS . . .
>>> >>
>>> >> The Truth is OUT There ... and if it's not; just go
>>> >> ahead and make things up. Because, really, in The End
>>> >> (Apocalypse Now Remix), everything is always all-good.
>>> >> You only need to open your ears to see the truth, and
>>> >> understand that Saint Cobain died for our sins, Tupac
>>> >> was killed because he cared TOO MUCH, and Jesus so
>>> >> loved LSD that he gave the world bisexual women in
>>> >> thigh-high leather boots.
>>> >>
>>> >> Complete Documented Proof is available from
>>> >> the Scientist in Outer Space, upon request.
>>> 
>
>
>  /]=-----------------------------------------------------------
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> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
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