[ibogaine] Religion and Mindvox was Re: [ibogaine] question

Vector Vector vector620022002 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 8 07:18:03 EDT 2004

Am I becoming tech support? I want a @mindvox.com account already! :)

Carla whatever it is that you're reading here you go from the first 10
results on the first page of google.


Peter Carroll: "If you want a one-line definition with which most
Chaosists would not disagree, then I offer the following: Chaosists
usually accept the meta-belief that belief itself is only a tool for
achieving effects; it is not an end in itself."

Meta-belief is an important concept in Chaos Magic. It is the idea that
belief is nothing more than a state of mind, and as such, can be
manipulated by the will. Belief is a psychological state that can be
deliberately self-manipulated, although it has the power to shape our
own reality, and sometimes other people's reality as well. It is the
means, not the end; the vehicle, not the destination.

The practice of meta-belief confers an awful freedom and an awful
responsibility. Practicing the temporary adoption of an obsessive
belief system that allows for the possibility of accomplishing specific
effects, and then the abandonment of that belief system upon the
completion of the work. Subsequent, and even contradictory belief
systems are adopted in turn as need or desire may dictate. To do this
(and not go completely insane) it is of paramount importance that no
one particular set of beliefs is ever accepted as being ultimately

The essence of magic is non-verbal and personally unique. The key is
the imagination, and the doors are the altered states of consciousness.
You can meditate, burn all the candles and chant all the incantations
you want, but if your mind isn't transported to another place in the
process, it isn't going to amount to much.

There are myriad ways to alter one's conscious perceptions in different
directions, and part of the journey is learning how your consciousness
functions and how to alter it in accordance with your intention.

Like a method actor, a Chaos Magician seeks to circumvent everyday
reality and suspend disbelief. To do this he or she uses the tools of
the actor: setting, costumes, props, words, sounds, and especially what
Stanislavsky called emotional memory. Any powerful, transformative
experience can be used to tap into the emotional memory, including sex,
pain, confusion, elation, disgust and ecstasy -- especially in
paradoxical combinations.

As a result, Chaos Magic is magic without limitations. Chaos magic is
not a new system, or a rehash of older systems, or any kind of system
at all. It's a new attitude. It's a different way of looking at the Art
of Magic -- as an expression of Art above all other considerations.
Like so many Artists, Chaos Mages tend toward an attitude of elitism,
since a great part of the creation of Art is the pursuit of excellence,
and pride in oneself and one's creations when excellence is achieved.
An elitist attitude (as long as it's balanced with compassion and
doesn't desend into bigotry) is forgivable in the Artist, for without
it no great work of Art would ever be realized.

The practice of Chaos Magic can be destablizing, because it's designed
to deconstruct belief. Like psychedelic drugs, it can drastically alter
your reality. So it's not for the squeamish, or for those who fear what
lurks in their deepest selves, for it is from those deep selves that
the Chaos Mage forges his or her gods and demons.

Such dualistic concepts as "white" or "black" magic are not applicable
to Chaos Magic, at least not in the sense of being good or evil. Magic
is a force, like electromagnetism, and has no inherent moral qualities.
Peter Carroll wrote in Liber Null, "The end results of either path are
likely not to be dissimilar, for the paths meet in a way that is
impossible to describe. The so-called 'middle way', or path of
knowledge, consisting of the mere second hand acquisition of ideas, is
an excuse to do neither and leads nowhere." As a result, Chaos
Magicians tend toward pushing the extremes, finding balance by swinging
from pole to pole, rather than seeking "moderation."

--- Carla Barnes <carlambarnes at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- HSLotsof at aol.com wrote:
> > The Bwiti be with you and protect you and love you.
> > The rest of us will
> > follow.  This is the chapel.  We await the telling
> > of your adventure.
> >
> > Howard
> >
> What Howard wrote made me think about something that
> I've wondered about before but never wrote to the
> list. I've spent probably 3 hours looking through
> Mindvox which I've done before so many times and
> always get the same feeling from it which is that
> there are so many pieces in it that go into all these
> directions and some of it is really funny and some of
> it is beautiful, some of it is ugly and obnoxious but
> it's like this strange temple and every time I look
> there is some piece somewhere that's changed, so some
> of you are obviously doing something with it.
> This one tag line at the top caught my attention and
> made me keep thinking and reading through links
> tonight.
> Psychedelic Temple of The Apocalypse
> Then someone whos name I've forgot and I'm sorry :-(
> wrote that everything Patrick is doing is shamanism,
> then there have been so many messages to the list
> before about this but the one I remember when someone
> asked what Mindvox is a long time ago, the answer was
> 'Patrick's brain blown through a cuisanart' and that
> made me laugh but I'm not laughing anymore, I keep
> thinking about it and don't understand because to use
> even another quote and I'm sorry I'll stop with
> quotes, is 'Mindvox is a video game for
> schizophrenics'
> What I mean is even something as small as those tag
> lines. I can sit there and click them for hours which
> I have done when I'm stoned and they keep coming with
> new ones. Are there hundreds of them, thousands? The
> whole site is huge, it looks like something that took
> a lot of effort and time to make and what is the
> purpose for it exactly? I mean the main Mindvox site
> itself not Mindvox Ibogaine and the list, which are
> beautiful but have a definite reason for being here.
> Then I keep reading a clicking and keep getting more
> questions. The main Mindvox logo is a really beautiful
> psychedelic symbol of chaos. Then I click open
> ibogaine.mindvox.com and Dave Hunter is painting
> purple symbols of chaos, then that religion in
> slovenia I'm sorry I don't know the official name or
> is it Sacrament of transition? Has another symbol of
> chaos.
> The 'Purple Shit' Patrick talks about, now it's
> appearing in Dave Hunter's art, it shows up on Erowid
> dedicated to Patrick and Howard:
> http://www.erowid.org/culture/art/artists_h/art_hunter_dave.shtml
> At first it was only Patrick doing this, but it's like
> it is spreading all over the place, symbols of chaos
> and purple, so what I am really wondering is what does
> all of it mean? What are you doing exactly, when I
> look up the symbol of chaos it has so many different
> answers too, the closest thing the writing agrees on
> is that its a combination of white and black magic and
> a non religion, non belief system, individual
> spirituality, which makes as much sense as Mindvox
> does. Which makes no sense. The rest of the writing
> agrees on nearly nothing, it can't even agree on where
> the symbol came from or what it means at all!
> What I'm very respectfully asking is, what does it all
> mean to all of you? Patrick? You are very smart, very
> funny, but don't ever answer anything. Dave Hunter
> wrote a answer once to the list when he started
> painting the 'Purple Shit' about god through
> photoshop.
> The last thing I read was Trajectories which I love
> and always blows me away because it's such a huge
> combination of everything that says everything at once
> while saying nothing, I read it and feel like I just
> took acid and I don't mean to kiss your ass Patrick,
> youre a really brilliant writer but is this how your
> brain is working now, most of the time, all the time?
> Its like you are connecting everything to everything
> all at once.
> What does all of it mean? I'm right back to what
> Howard wrote about this being a Temple and it feels
> that way which is a great feeling but I've been here 3
> years at least now and I still don't get it and feel
> like I spend a lot of my time inside this mystery
> thinking that all of it will make sense someday but
> none of it ever does, it only gets weirder and keeps
> spreading!
> I'd still like to know what is the deal with the
> symbol of chaos? What does it mean? Since nowhere I go
> online where I look it up agrees with any other
> definition of it, what does it mean to you Patrick?
> You started up with it and now it's all over the place
> so obviously it must mean something to your friends
> who are painting it and putting it everywhere,
> what?????
> I think what I'm saying is thanks to all of you and
> love to everyone on the list :-) :-) And a lot of love
> to Preston!!!!! :-)
> Carla B
> http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/ 
> staticpage%3fpagename=Trajectories
> Copyright © 2001-2004, Patrick Karel Kroupa
> All Rights Reserved
> It was a bright day in the middle of the night, and I
> was walking down this road which was like an
> escalator. Then I saw these people, and kept trying to
> talk to them, but already it was too late, and my
> watch was running backwards. And these midgets in
> latex tutu's starting scampering across the ceiling
> which dissolved into an ocean, and I was drowning . .
> . but then at the bottom of the ocean I walked across
> the floor and opened this oyster which had a pearl in
> it; and I felt all warm and fuzzy, and then a meadow
> appeared . . .
> . . . and I understood, and wow, this is so cool, it's
> just like love and sunshine, and puppies, and
> ice-cream, and sex, except kinda like all at once... I
> never knew I loved having sex with puppies while
> eating ice-cream in the sunshine-- err, back that up a
> sentence or two, that's not exactly what I meant. And
> as I thought that, I realized that maybe my thinking,
> was all thunk out, so this chasm blows open and I was
> in a graveyard . . . after I got done clubbing the
> baby-seals, it seemed that it was beyond too late --
> even though time had stopped running backwards, and
> started moving sideways in spirals -- I have an
> appointment to give blood, seems I hafta go face-first
> through this lawnmower, and then I'm scheduled to tour
> at least 3 layers of hell before lunch, and--
> . . . and my spirit guide held my hand, and we walked
> on the water, over to where all my dead relatives were
> lined-up; they delivered a stern anti-drug lecture,
> while showing me ScArY MoViES of what my life would be
> like if I didn't stop doing drugs. But then God came
> down from heaven, gave me a big kiss, and dissolved
> into this shower of golden-light, and I knew that all
> the answers I was seeking through drugs were always
> inside of me, and I was healed.
> Furthermore, to Clarify:
> Now obviously, this explains why Gestalt is mostly
> correct, EMDR works some of the time, and Primal
> Therapy has the right idea. Schroedinger saw some
> light in the darkness, Neitzsche saw darkness in the
> light, and Hitler, Jesus, and Max Planck discussed it
> over tea one day, with the Mad Hatter acting as an
> independent peer-review committee, and Dostoyevsky
> taking down the minutes -- but he wasn't paying
> attention a lotta the time; this is okay 'cuz Godel
> had a parabolic mic aimed at the whole-entire
> scenario. Also, furthermore, this is only accurate on
> every other Tuesday, of leap-years, unless Peter
> Melchior manages to reintegrate John Lilly, and
> Timothy Leary gives him some therapy.
> Because sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, unless
> Freud didn't say that, uhm, what did he say again, oh
> yeah, "you people are all basically just totally
> fucked up. Now, who took my cocaine, and where the
> hell did my niece go... I'd call Sherlock Holmes to
> figure this out, but he's off somewhere banging-up
> speedballs. He's repressed anyway, and really needs to
> get laid." Of course, this is only metaphorically a
> parable, because Sherlock Holmes was a real person,
> whereas Freud was a strung-out champion of law and
> order, only in books, and on the astral planes.
> But anyway, as anyone can see this only works on the
> primary and secondary levels of quaternary dualism,
> unless it doesn't. Christian Science, the Koran,
> Buddhism, Shivaism, Scientology, and the Muslims, are
> seeing at least part of the spectrum of possibility,
> except when they're not. But it really doesn't matter
> because Socrates knew it -- tho' he didn't write it
> down -- Plato (who was a whiny little fuckhead)
> plagiarized it, and Aristotle retrieved and refined
> it.
> Strings are a good theory, but sometimes Viagra works
> better, because as Heisenberg explained, the
> Uncertainty Principle doesn't really start to throb
> unless the strange attractor is wearing a mini and
> heels, in which case non-linear dynamics will cause
> the butterfly with broken wings to nose-dive, this
> will make Voltaire depressed a lot of the time; but
> ultimately it's all-good because when Freud dropped
> the cigar, Fromm picked it up and re-lit it, Sartre
> stuck it in his mouth but never inhaled, and Jung
> understood all of it, in its entire totality, some of
> the time -- even though he didn't smoke cigars.
> Baudelaire and Rimbaud lived it, Shelley kinda flopped
> around a lot and drowned, but his wife nailed it;
> Byron also nailed a lot of things -- lacking a
> camcorder and a web site, on occasion he even wrote
> some of them down. Tesla and Willhelm Reich had it all
> written out in invisible ink on SekRet DocumenTz,
> hidden under an orgone accumulator, until THEY, THEM,
> and THOSE PEOPLE, ruined everything. Escher took the
> remnants and made a moebious-strip out of them. Once
> the colors got all smeared, C.S. Lewis and Dr. Seuss
> summed it all up in one cohesive whole, understandable
> by any child; however, when most adults try to
> cross-connect the spirals of rainbows, they just end
> up with mud.
> Lately though, I'm starting to have a lot of dreams
> about sex. This means its time to take a really long
> plane-ride. In conclusion, black-lights are pretty
> groovy, but somehow -- for me anyway -- lava-lamps,
> just get real old, real fast. The 'Dead mahn --
> Yahhhhhhhh -- Uhm, I don't like the dead; it's not an
> option dude, they're the Dead Mahn, yahhhhh! -- Uhm,
> okay, I guess, do you have any Nine Inch Nails?
> Obviously,
> The MindVox servers are located 100 feet underground
> in New Mexico, Utah, and Pig's Knuckle, OH. They are
> fully distributed, entirely redundant, and completely
> recombinant. Vox is INVINCIBLE, Invisible and
> psychotic -- it enters the mind through the eye and
> spreads throughout the organism.
> MindVox operates on a principle similar to RADAR, but
> is highly unstable and FLYING out of everything. It
> has an array of OC3's with direct interfaces to the
> ley-lines circling the earth. Its NOC's are located at
> Stonehenge, the Bermuda Triangle, and a
> distributed-system of Lost Temples hidden at the
> earth's core. The earth is hollow, conclusive and
> fully documented proof is available in the works of
> Nazi Scientist Genius: Hans Horbiger (who should not,
> and MUST not, be confused with the Scientist in Outer
> Space), who EXPOSED the whole entire truth (in its
> complete totality). THOSE PEOPLE, sadly, just didn't
> understand.
> Customer Support for MindVox is located in a little
> white house with a big UPS in the West Indies, a
> small, nondescript dwelling 10km. west of Lop Buri,
> Thailand, and a SERIES of completely trashed
> apartments on the upper east side in NYC.
> MindVox has been used for centuries in smaller doses
> to combat fatigue and boredom, and higher ranges, as
> part of spiritual initiation rituals in the Voxer
> Religion. MindVox HCl was first made available in 1991
> and will finally be released as an unbound freebase in
> 2001. In the very near future we hope to have Vox
> available in an exciting variety of flavored
> suppositories, in an assortment of sizes, so that you
> can stick it up your ass.
> MindVox UNDERSTANDS that Aleister Crowley was just
> misunderstood. The Book of Coming Forth by Night and
> Doing a Lot of Coke wasn't his fault. That was his
> DISEASE, plus, also, Aiwiss made him do BAD THINGS.
> Although, to be honest, Vox loves receiving Hate Mail
> and Death Threats from Satanic Masters of the Dark
> Arts who threaten to Smite it Down if it Doesn't STOP
> mocking (who's mocking?) the Great Beast (what did we
> ever say about Marilyn Manson? He's an EXCELLENT
> musician). Deep down inside, MindVox KNOWS that these
> NOT come from welfare-collecting, computer-twerps who
> sit on the Internet 24hrs. a day. It Fully Realizes
> its Whole Entire Future is in Grave Peril and vibrates
> inside with Tremendous Glee...
> MindVox was INSIDE the Bayer corporation when they
> invented the cure for coughs. It hovered briefly in
> the general vicinity of Freud when he UNVEILED the
> Whole Entire panacea for depression, but then left,
> because he made its head hurt, lots and lots. Vox
> loves, believes in, and STANDS BEHIND all B-D
> products, which make hypodermic syringes that should
> ONLY be used for IM'ing insulin -- never, ever,
> anything else . . . at all. It chooses to disbelieve
> in the Secret, Hidden Network of Iranian Gas-Station
> Owners who are nearly always out of gas, change, or
> any food product that did not expire 3 years ago. They
> do, however, have a near-endless supply of baking soda
> and brillo, plus, also, not to be forgotten, Many
> Thousands of Mysterious Glass Tubes -- which the
> super-friendly worker will hand you through the
> bulletproof glass if he KNOWS you -- which could serve
> almost ANY purpose imaginable, but are definitely,
> without a doubt, and absolutely, NOT crackpipes.
> MindVox understands this is just another conspiracy by
> the Illuminati, CIA and Black Panthers.
> MindVox SEES the REAL you. Yes YOU, it KNOWS that
> you're so special, you're all aglow with specialness.
> It finds you interesting, different, and totally
> unique -- it loves you, lots and lots, and wants to
> eXchange bodily fluids. Vox is sensitive -- whole
> Legions of Mental Health Experts, have PROVEN and
> EXPLAINED this -- and lies awake at night crying,
> feeling the pain of the Horrible Atrocities being
> COMMITED at the former fully robotic NeXT factory,
> where BAD PEOPLE are making the Automation do
> TERRIBLE, Unspeakable, THINGS . . .
> The Truth is OUT There ... and if it's not; just go
> ahead and make things up. Because, really, in The End
> (Apocalypse Now Remix), everything is always all-good.
> You only need to open your ears to see the truth, and
> understand that Saint Cobain died for our sins, Tupac
> was killed because he cared TOO MUCH, and Jesus so
> loved LSD that he gave the world bisexual women in
> thigh-high leather boots.
> Complete Documented Proof is available from
> the Scientist in Outer Space, upon request.

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