[ibogaine] Support for Joshua
krinklyfig at pacbell.net
Tue Nov 4 12:00:28 EST 2003
On Monday, 03 November 2003 11:40 PM -0700,
Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj at free.fr> wrote:
> Joshua, I went on thinking of what you've explained of the choice to be
> made now, both concerning you and your friend.
> And it remains me of the Archetypes, psychological symbols to whom we, as
> human beings, seem to identify in our psychic process.
> Are you clear, I mean at ease, ok, with the reasons that made you want to
> help, and maybe tried to "save " your friend ?
Um ... it's not my situation. I was responding to someone on the list who is
trying to help a friend who is an addict. I am not trying to "save" anyone.
In fact, I'd discourage anyone from trying to do that for anyone else.
> It appears to me that the Archetyp of The-One-Who-Saves, and in some way
> may sacrifizes him/herself, may interest you, and as a nurse, I know a
> little about that process, believe me ;-)
> I had to make a long way in my own life to discover how much I needed to
> be helped myself and a paradoxal process is that one somethimes " Does to
> others what one needs for oneself ", see what I mean ? ;-)
> One thing more, that point of view doesn't mean at all that one acts
> without compassion and good abilities to accompagny others for a certain
> amount of time, in a certain way.
> It means that one day, one may be obliged to face that others don't react
> the way one would have liked them to do and, that one may have to face
> painful complexity, feeling down, exhausted : Time for ourselves has come
> If we accept it : Time to go deeper searching what was in adequation with
> our naturel ressources and what was far beyond, to heavy, which are the
> feelings speaking in our background, culpability may be there in
> relationship with shame, feelings of unworthyness, and deep loneliness.
> I don't say that it's your story, but for experience and trainings I've
> made, I know that the ones we help are often like mirrors of some distress
> we may have deep inside too, from our own family's story.
> See, it may appears that by helping some persons, we might be asking
> unconsciously " Tell me that I'm able to give love, and that love is safe
> ". It may sound too heavy for the ones who may receive that virtual
> message, cause they already have to deal with their pain and complexity.
> That's one of the reason why therapists need to go through supervision,
> to be able to part what is their bargain and what is the story of the
> people they are accompagning.
> That's all ;-)
> I hope that you and your friend will feel free to go, each on it's own
> path; has your friend already met Iboga ?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martine Docin-Julien" <jardin.dj at free.fr>
> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support
> > Hello Joshua, I'm wondering if you have yourself some kind of support, I
> > mean for you ? To express what I can imagine of the anxiety to let one's
> > friend go her own way, with maybe some complex feelings, anger or
> > disappointment, frustration, doubt, sadness ?
> > I guess such a decision is not taken easily, and you seem to have
> > invested lot of energy and time and hope in this relationship.
> > Are you prepared to cross a transition period ?
> > How will you help yourself in that transition ? Have you planned
> > something new for yourself ?
> > Friendly,
> > Martine
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joshua Tinnin" <krinklyfig at pacbell.net>
> > To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support
> > > On Sunday, 02 November 2003 5:54 PM -0700,
> > > gary thomas <thomaspi at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I was writing for advice from those who have experienced the power
> > > > of addiction. For the past couple of years I have tried to help a
> > > > close friend fight her addiction of crack. It just seems I have
> > > > tried harder than she has. I have experience the "give me one more
> > > > chance" to many times. My questions would be, when should I let
> > > > her go, and let happen what may. Thanks Gary
> > >
> > > It totally depends on you. I am speaking as an addict, though I have
> > > not used my substance of choice for quite some time and I shun
> > > traditional treatments, though I will not tell someone with similar
> > > problems to necessarily choose my path. Different treatments work
> > > better for different people, and for some people there is nothing
> > > that will help but time, if even that. The best advice in a nutshell
> > > I could give you is don't let yourself be manipulated, and act out of
> > > love, even if it means that you have to sever your relationship in
> > > order to save it (or your own sanity). But the one thing you must
> > > remember more than anything is that you cannot decide for this person
> > > what to do next, but you can decide what you will do next. You can
> > > set conditions where the relationship would work for you, and if the
> > > conditions aren't met within an agreed timeframe, then you have every
> > > right to let this person go - some people would say at that point you
> > > have the responsibility to let this person go, as continuing to make
> > > agreements which are later broken isn't helping, and you aren't
> > > sticking to your word. Stick to your word, no matter how much it
> > > hurts, because she can't stick to her words.
> > >
> > > Good luck. It sucks, I know, though crack is something I always
> > > avoided, but self-destructive behavior is common to many addicts.
> > >
> > > - jt
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