[ibogaine] The Star Dec. 24 (one day before JAMA)

Patrick K. Kroupa digital at phantom.com
Tue Jan 21 19:12:14 EST 2003

On [Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 02:54:27PM -0800], [brendan22 at hushmail.com] wrote:

| Patrick who is this moron?

Jeff is a consultant who reviews patient safety data for HV.  He has
absolutely nothing to do with setting the pricing, he is not a
shareholder, he does not make decisions regarding when and how Deborah's
data is published or presented.  In short: unloading upon him serves no
particular purpose; he is not in a position to make changes and cannot
disclose proprietary information.

The article in the Star had a few minor factual errors, possibly due to
their fact checking department being on vacation until roughly the heat
death of the universe.

Other than alla this, he's an addictionologist.  He's a relatively recent
addition and wuz not around when I dosed, so I dunno what his particular
theories are 'bout the meaning of life, death, and addikshun.  As far as I
know he's a big fan of the 12-steps 'cuz that's what worked for him.  He
appears to honestly believe in what he does.  He has never attempted to
inflict his paradigms upon me.  He tries to help his clients.  Sometimes
this works out, sometimes it does not.  If it doesn't, then it's probably
up to the individual to find something else to do -- presuming they wanna
get clean.

To sum it up: I dunno Jeff very well, but I have seen him repeatedly
attempt to help individuals who are broken down n' shit and have no flow
to pay him.  While people have a complex series of reasons for any given
thing they do, many who work with addiction are primarily driven by
emotional needs.  Ascribing the motivation for any given person's actions
to solely altruism or greed, would tend to be wrong in either case.

Everybody is working out their own shit in different ways.

| I don't even need to ask that question because I know what the answer
| will be. Nothing. 

Okay, here, my reply: 


| Patrick this one's for you. It doesn't matter what your relationship is
| with mash, its obvious that its all personal and nothing to do with
| anything else, but your entire life history is pulling skeletons out of
| everyone's closets. You people get indicted and a month later General
| Donn B. Parker from SRI is being investigated for using research money
| to buy escorts, his phone lines go to a escort agency and then he
| resigns and that case is dismissed because their main witness won't
| testify against you. This is one case out of many. I wont go on with
| this but you people always get everything on everyone.

Brendan, you -- and a few other people -- have this charming habit of
wedging events that may or may not have occurred a decade ago, and pertain
to da h4(k3r undergr0und; right into the middle of messages which have
absolutely nothing to do with anything you're talking about. 

I do not know Donn Parker, I have never spoken with Donn Parker, and
<cough> <cough> I don't think he wuz evah no general, unless it was while
playing dress-up.

Hypothesizing that what you posted bears any relation whatsoever to events
that actually occurred -- as opposed to third person, fourth-party hearsay
-- I am highly unclear what your point is.  The only lesson I can derive
from this paragraph is a very old one: people who live in glass houses,
shouldn't cast stones.  Unless of course they want shit to blow the fuck
up, and have everything come crashing down all over them.  Instant karma.

If you feel the urge to unload all this, please do so on the vox list or
fd.  It's not really appropriate for a forum dedicated to the discussion
of Philip K. Dick, Time Travel physics, and people such as myself having
extended seizures over the psychological damages inflicted upon them by
treatment pimps and 12-step meetings.

Uhm, whoopsie, I meant to say: it's not really appropriate for a forum
dedicated to the discussion of ibogaine.  Yeah that wuz it.

| I'm sure there isn't a computer or telephone with 10 miles of you that
| is'nt 0wned.

What's with the 10 mile radius...?  The whole point of communications
technology is that all distances on planet Earth -- and outer space toO!
-- are more or less equidistant...  

Well, unless you're using Global Crossing or WorldCom, "look, obviously
you Just Don't Understand.  The SiGnAl has to travel a lonnnnnnnnng way,
up and down hills, through outer space, and underwater too...  It gets
VERY TIRED.  Unless the sIgNaL receives another $25 billion in funding,
more stock options, and all criminal charges are dropped; it's just going
to give up, file chapter 11, and sit down somewhere.  And then, roughly
50% of the world's communications backbone will go dark.  If this happens,
civilization as we know it will grind to a halt.  I mean, how are you
going to steal copyrighted music, download pr0n, and play Quake III

| It doesn't matter if you signed nondisclosures but if mash is not lying
| about everything and she knows things about ibogaine that nobody else
| does and someone dies in a situation that could have been avoided if she
| did what she claims she is doing, studying ibogaine instead of getting
| rich. the blood is on your hands too Patrick.

Highly excellent do0d.  I give it 10 shiny gold stars on the Histrionic
DramaMeter.  When you're not drunk, you can be very lucid and articulate.

However, s'okay, blood washes off.  If you happen to get it on your
clothes, lemme mention that Tide with that Protein Lifting akshun and
Mountain Spring scent, works miracles.

| This is not a dis to you at all patrick, its something to think about.
| You do things that help other people you run the list, you speak out
| about ibogaine everywhere and not just Mash's, your hacker subculture
| stronghold mindvox has become the ibogaine promotional service. you have
| got to have some problems with all this because you never say one word
| about healing visions, you personalize it and always back up mash even
| when shes full of shit. She's not listening to anyone, she listens to
| you so mention to her that it may be great to publish some of that data
| if its so important. 

Thanks do0d, I'm glad my life meets with your approval.  What is it that
YOU do again...?  

I do not own any proprietary ibogaine research data, and thusly, it's
completely pointless to toss this in my direction.  What is it that you
want from me...?  You know that ibogaine works, you know where to obtain
it, so your problem is...?

Yes there are various dangers inherent with using ibogaine.  To cop a line
from Paracelsus, "everything is poison, nothing is poison."  Nothing is
absolutely safe, least of all any given day in the life of a junkie or
crackhead <shrug>.

To articulate my own OPINION; there seems to be an increasingly large
contingent of people dosing drug-dependent individuals with ibogaine,
under a wide variety of conditions. 

The main question appears to be: what happens to any given individual who
experiences an adverse event -- however you choose to define "adverse
event" -- under the influence of ibogaine, if that situation is not
immediately dealt with (or even noticed, if no monitoring is taking
place).  Will they drop dead?

The answer seems to be: maybe, but probably not.  'Cuz if somewhere there
is a growing mountain of dead bodies, I'm not aware of it.

Whatever you wind up doing, YOU are ultimately responsible for YOU.  If
you want to dose with ibogaine, it'd be a great idea to at least give
yourself basic familiarity with what to expect, and read through the
ibogaine manual. 


| Or does she need to make another 10 million before she's sure of the results?

Deborah has never made $10 dollars from ibogaine, much less anything
approaching $10 million.  HV is a dog with fleas in terms of cashflow;
factor in all the expenses of flying MD's, counselors, shrinks, and
various other staff, to an island in the middle of nowhere, and what it
costs to get all of them to drop their practices and personal lives for
two weeks while they sit and spin on St. Kitts, and you arrive at breaking

If you cannot afford St. Kitts, or the whole scenario is not to your
liking, well then: go somewhere else!  Big fucking deal.  The situation is
dramatically different than it was a few years ago; the prices for
ibogaine and ibogaine treatment start at NOTHING, and move upwards from
there depending on what you want, and where you'd like to go.  You have
many choices.


If Deborah's publishing schedule is not to your liking, oh well.  The
problem is that she's at the Department of Neurology, *not* the Department
of Ibogaine.  There doesn't seem to be anybody who wants to fund anything
related to ibogaine, and gosh, running a department has expenses; thusly,
shit that pays the bills gets prioritized above the Holy Crusade, which
has never generated .5 fucking cents.

If you'd like to accelerate things, restart clinical trials within the
United States, and see ibogaine move forward a little faster than the
speed of a crawling snail: please feel free to send cash to the Ibogaine
Research Project.  It's a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization and
you can write it off on your taxes.

Or buy plane tickets for somebody who can't afford it, to go see Marc.   

If you just wanna bitch about shit <shrug> welcome to the human race, hope
it provides a nice catharsis. 

Thanks for sharing,


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