[ibogaine] ibogaine question seattle

Joshua Tinnin krinklyfig at myrealbox.com
Fri Jan 3 23:20:21 EST 2003

Hey, Curtis,

I can't really talk about it too much at the moment, so I hope you can
understand this. Maybe I could take it offlist or something ... it's just a
very personal situation at the moment, and I'm still trying to work through
it. But, just to clarify, I never had any addiction to opiates, although I
probably would have if I put myself in that situation, which I consciously
avoided. My addiction was to a different substance. Although LSD helped me
immensely, I'm not out of the woods, and I didn't take it intending to be
changed forever by it ... but, well, it happened anyway. I'm not by any
means new to the experience in general. This is why I'm afraid to advocate
for it, because it took more than just LSD for it to work, and I'm not quite
sure what all the elements were that did that. I think it was just the right
time for me, but didn't know it until it happened. It was a ton of bricks
and about a freight train hitting me at full speed ... LSD was the catalyst,
to be sure, but it required a very careful combination of other things (not
chemicals) to be in place for it to work that way. It's unpredicatble. It
left me with some lingering questions and problems, and some of them are
just my own lack of self esteem, but it takes time to sort it out.

As I said, I am going to be following up with other therapy. But would
prefer to leave it at that for the moment. I am not a brilliant communicator
as Patrick is, and haven't yet figured it all out for myself, either. But
this is something that I feel has to be shared at some point, because, if it
has the possibility of helping someone, then it will have been worth it. I
just don't want people dosing themselves thinking that's what I told them to
do, and then getting pissed because it didn't work for them, or because,
forbid, they got screwed up by the experience. Just gotta tread carefully
and take this a bit at a time, and later maybe can speak to it when I
understand it better, when it would be less likely to be misunderstood ...

- jt

----- Original Message -----
From: <crownofthorns at hushmail.com>

> That was very restrained Patrick, what no top 100 reasons you hate Lance
Gooberman list? ;-)
> If I remember your little speech right bro, Richard Resnick was a
wonderful doctor who is being persecuted for helping people and Lance
Gooberman should be cut into little pieces. Resnick gave you a lot of drugs
and all you got from Gooberman were 2 lousy urods ;-)
> Bro, you and Brett, Randy, some others here and that includes me, should
start a I was abused by treatment pimps list.
> Speaking of which, I'm asking very politely without any stress or
anything, that Mindvox system, you remember it? Will it open any time soon,
it all seems to be there now. It all seems to have been there since November
bro, what's the deal?
> What I'm dying to know because you never answer, what is it like to do
that much acid? You and JT now. you credit ibogaine for the detox but give
all cred to LSD for letting you rearrange your head. Now I'm real curious
because I don't like tripping that much, I would have never done acid before
doing ibogaine but now when I think about it I've lost a lot of my fear and
would like to try again. Not some whopping dose but 3 or 4 hits.
> Peace out,
> Curtis
> On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 14:35:03 -0800 "Patrick K. Kroupa"
<digital at phantom.com> wrote:
> >On [Wed, Jan 01, 2003 at 03:24:59PM -0800], [Xiang Lee Chen] wrote:
> >
> >| Thank you, my questions then would be if you don't
> >| believe in the 12 steps then why did dr. mash say that
> >| you take people to meetings sometime?
> >
> >Well, because no matter which of my realities they're culled from,
> > it
> >seems that nearly everyone I know is either on drugs, trying to
> >get off
> >drugs, or skidding back and forth.  While it is entirely possible
> >to do
> >everything your own way, for most people it just reaches the stage
> >of,
> >"well, ya know, it's been 6 months, I'm really not seeing any magic
> >happening here, hanging around with me is not sufficient to save
> >you from
> >yourself, I'm not a treatment pimp who is leeching flow off you
> >and I can
> >no longer deal with 25 phone calls a day whenever you're having
> >a crisis.
> >Here's a meeting, it's completely filled with people bitching about
> >shit,
> >so spread the codependence around.  Good luck with all that."
> >
> >It's also important to give the people in my local "recovery community"
> >(aka: the Legion of Hall Monitors on Crack), new material every
> >so often
> >so they can talk shit amongst themselves and exclaim, "yeah mahn,
> > I saw
> >Patrick at a meeting, he sat in the back and was all fucked up and
> >relapsed."  And this still blows my mind.  That I can talk to someone
> >in
> >"recovery" who will rattle off a list of places I have theoretically
> >been
> >seen, meetings I went to, and things I "shared."  It's like, who
> >the fuck
> >are you people, I don't hang out with any of you -- ever, why do
> >you even
> >know that I exist much less keep track of my imaginary comings and
> >goings.
> >I hate that shit.
> >
> >Anyway, basically, I occasionally drag people to 12-step meetings
> >because
> >I don't have any other place to take them to.  There is -- in theory
> >--
> >some sort of SMART meeting around here, but I've never found it
> >... on the
> >flipside I've never really looked.  Perhaps I should.
> >
> >| My other
> >| question would be then do you feel lsd therapy and
> >| psychedelics are useful for helping people get
> >| abstinence from hard drugs?
> >
> >Uhm . . . well, absolutely and yes.  Plus, also, not really, and
> >probably
> >not.
> >
> >A pivotal moment for me was 'bout 2 years ago when a guy I was friends
> >with -- who actually was in traditional "recovery," working the
> >steps,
> >going to therapy, all that shit -- asked me to get him acid.  And
> >the
> >conversation was reasonable, it just amounted to "I want what you
> >have,
> >help me get there."  And I was going to, then I thought about it,
> > then I
> >thought about it a lot, passed it through the Purple Shit(TM)(SM)(Patent
> >Pending), and took a pass.
> >
> >My conclusion at the time was, if I could hypothetically help you
> >get
> >acid, then you go and take it, find God, realign your entire universe,
> > and
> >live happier ever after...  Well, that's highly groovy.  But, see,
> > if on
> >the flipside, you take acid, wreck your car, and take off on a 2
> >month
> >long crack run...  Then I just set all of that into play.  And I
> >mean, no
> >*I* didn't do any of that, he would have, but I really don't need
> >the
> >karma either way, whatever you're looking for I cannot imagine it'll
> >take
> >you longer than a few hours to find it, so good luck, you really
> >don't
> >need me for that.
> >
> >And what he wound up doing was blowing out, and the downward spiral
> >is
> >still going, he has not pulled back out of it.  Could it have been
> >avoided
> >if he'd had the chance to do acid... probably not, and I would be
> >left
> >holding the bag and wondering if I'm the reason all of that happened.
> >
> >Without LSD, I personally, may or may not have made it.  Anything
> >is
> >possible, but let's say I would strongly bet against it.  I also
> >went
> >somewhere where the actions I was taking were regarded as highly
> >positive
> >and full of great merit; people did not have a problem with the
> >fact that
> >I left the planet and wasn't gonna be landing for a few months.
> >
> >Had I done what I did in the United States, it would have taken
> >a few days
> >at most for some helpful person to have me Baker-acted; I would
> >have come
> >back to earth in a straitjacket, hosed down with sedatives and
> >neuroleptics, and then been dumped into some perpetual long-term
> >endless
> >circle-jerk of bullshit "therapeutic community" where they'd let
> >me out on
> >the playground to smoke a cigarette if I behaved really well.
> >
> >I wanted reintegration; I got it.  Had I done it in the United States,
> > I
> >would have gotten some idiot jotting down a few paragraphs in my
> >medical
> >records, describing what I did as yet another manifestation of my
> >lifelong
> >drug problem.
> >
> >What I'm saying is: it wouldn't have worked out the same way.  Very
> >wrong
> >setting.
> >
> >I absolutely believe that entheogens used with the proper context,
> > set,
> >setting, alla that, can provide a tremendous boost to nearly everyone.
> >The proper set, setting, and intent is prolly not handing someone
> >acid at
> >a rave.  What I mostly see is people turning entheogens into an
> >excuse to
> >go off and do whatever it is that they wanna do anyway (heroin or
> >crack).
> >Left to their own devices, they turn it all to shit.
> >
> >All of this sorta loops back to where it begins...  I can't make
> >a
> >generalization about what <any given drug-dependent individual>
> >should do.
> >Everyone is different.  I do not know where to send people who need
> >aftercare, but don't want the 12-step crap.  Going to an ashram
> >is mostly
> >not going to work out.  If you go somewhere very straight, then
> >wander
> >around and talk about how much you wanna smoke crack all day...
> > Well,
> >it's not gonna help you very much, and it's unlikely that anyone
> >else
> >there will understand what you're going through.  If you go to a
> >space
> >where drug use is accepted; there is a very high chance that in
> >addition
> >to entheogens, there's also gonna be all the materials you are trying
> >to
> >avoid.  Will most people make the scenario work...?  Nope.
> >
> >Will most people pick up self-help books like the SMART materials
> >and try
> >to figure out how to help themselves?  Nope.  Will most people do
> >*anything* except stay clean by force of will for a few days or
> >weeks,
> >then go back to doing <whatever>?  Nope.
> >
> >The problem with all of this is that "drug treatment" sucks.  Period.
> > You
> >mostly have either a collection of pinheads with theories, who have
> >never
> >done any drugs and have no idea how "addiction" works, and then
> >on the
> >other side you have -- with some few exceptions -- the dumbest and
> >most
> >fucked up; by which I mean to say doctors who are perpetually <this
> >close>
> >to losing their license, and have lots and lots of experience with
> >drugs,
> >plus, also, the One True Answer to everything.  In other words:
> >whatever
> >they did to clean up (if they happen to actually be clean).  This
> >is
> >nearly always the 12 steps.
> >
> >I gotta go, this is getting long, but to sum it all up: from what
> >I can
> >see of your web page, you are some program that students take classes
> >in,
> >which tries to help street people get basic medical care, new syringes,
> >
> >condoms, shit like that.
> >
> >The main set of problems that *most* of the people you deal with
> >are going
> >to have; is that they're broke, out on the street, have no skills,
> > no
> >friends, and no hope.  Many of them will be mentally ill, and
> >self-medicating with narcotic analgesics works a fuckova lot better
> >than
> >doing neuroleptics for most things, especially schizophrenia.
> >
> >Drug dependence is their solution, not their problem.  Even if you
> >could
> >dose them all with ibogaine and then follow it up with some other
> >kind of
> >entheogen-assisted therapy...  Nearly all of them will be right
> >back where
> >they started, given a week or two tops.
> >
> >On the flipside, a few will fly over the cuckoo's nest and loop
> >out of
> >that spiral.  Go figure.
> >
> >laters,
> >
> >Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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