[ibogaine] ibogaine question seattle

Xiang Lee Chen xiangleechen at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 1 18:24:59 EST 2003

Thank you, my questions then would be if you don't
believe in the 12 steps then why did dr. mash say that
you take people to meetings sometime? My other
question would be then do you feel lsd therapy and
psychedelics are useful for helping people get
abstinence from hard drugs? 

My question for Marc Emery of Iboga Therapy House is
do you plan to have any kind of spiritual use of
psychedelic drugs after the ibogaine? 

Thank you

Xiang Chen

--- "Patrick K. Kroupa" <digital at phantom.com> wrote:
> On [Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 05:52:01PM -0800], [Xiang
> Lee Chen] wrote:
> | what I have read on mindvox answers some questions
> in
> | parts but it's not a sensibile whole. You are very
> | very smart and write extremely well but it is like
> you
> | take pages and re arrange them in no right order.
> I
> | cannot follow, I think this is intentional but I
> don't
> | understand mindvox at all except art, not
> followable
> | information
> I'm just incoherent.
> | My questions please.
> | 
> | At Seattle when asked about the 12 steps you gave
> a
> | nice reply and said that upward of 50% of addicted
> | persons who take ibogaine used the 12 steps. In
> this
> | issue of heroin times you are very negative about
> 12
> | steps. I know you do not use them but you gave
> very
> | nice reply at talk, then wrote a article which
> | completely invalidates them. I don't understand.
> What's in "this issue" of Heroin Times, is sumthin'
> I wrote 'bout 2 years
> ago; he is simply recycling my material.  A lot of
> that particular space
> in time, is just me working out my shit and venting,
> to sum it up, "HA!
> Fuck all of you stupid fucking pieces of shit who
> ripped me off, handed me
> lead weights while I was drowning and attempted to
> inflict psychological
> damages on me while I was in an extremely vulnerable
> state.  Who's still
> standing is me, and who has gone down in fucking
> flames are 95% of the
> weak-willed idiots who ever got in my face with
> their bullshit."  
> In short, it's an emotional response that represents
> my feelings about
> being subjected to "drug treatment" and the comedy
> routine known as rehab.
> But that was a while ago, and it's kinda like, okay,
> the sun rose in the
> east today, and the 12 steps still suck, so what
> else is new.
> The 12 steps are sumthin' to do -- other than drugs.
>  They're extremely
> old eastern concepts for dismantling ego, rewritten
> and dumbed-down for
> drug dependent individuals who are acclimated to
> western culture.
> Somewhere along the way, all of that turned into the
> Cult of Eternal
> Powerlessness where you can sit and spin, complain
> about shit for all
> eternity, and shine up the altar you've built to
> your idealized former
> self.
> An organized alternative to the 12-steps, which many
> people on this list
> seem to find useful is SMART.  I've never done it
> personally, but reading
> through their spin control, I haven't found much I
> disagree with. 
> Uhm, I dunno their URL offhand, Randy does I'm sure.
> | In JAMA article you are quoted as saying that on
> | ibogaine you "went to hell and got killed 1000
> times"
> | which is same as you said at talk when you did
> | ibogaines to detox from drugs, but at your talk
> you
> | gave very dark experiences but it was very funny
> not
> | like you would not do ibogaine again, you said you
> | will do ibogaine again at talk. You also said
> ibogaine
> | very mild, not near as strong as LSD.
> Yeah I did, it wasn't much fun, but it certainly
> didn't deter me from
> doing ibogaine again.  Ibogaine isn't a very strong
> "hallucinogen" it's
> equivalent to no more than roughly 300-500mcg of
> LSD.  If the visions are
> distressing, then just open your eyes, they will
> recede.  
> This is both good and bad.  What it amounts to is
> walking into the lobby
> where a movie is playing, you can go sit in the
> movie, or if you don't
> like it, you can wander back out and land right on,
> "fuck this, it didn't
> work, I knew it wouldn't, nothing ever does, where's
> my dealer at..."
> Ibogaine isn't strong enough to FORCE you to
> confront anything, you can
> avoid it.  On 3-5mg+ of LSD you really, REALLY do
> not have that option.
> Whether you decide you want it or not at that point,
> you're going. 
> On the flipside, LSD ain't gonna do nothin' 'bout
> your habit.
> | Thanks for talk and your time, for me you made it
> much
> | eaisier to understand difference between ultra
> rapid
> | and other detox and what ibogaine feel like, but
> you
> | confuse me with 12 step and if you like ibogaine
> or
> | not. 
> I like ibogaine, the 12-steps are something that
> works out for some
> people, and does damage to many more who are
> subjected to this bullshit as
> the "only answer," to drug dependence, and confuse
> their failure to get in
> tune with this cult, as having anything whatsoever
> to do with stepping out
> of drug dependence.
> What that means: if you actually WANT to get off
> drugs, and the 12-steps
> don't work out for you, it does not mean you're
> damned, not ready, or
> hopeless; it just means maybe you should find
> something else to do. 
> Patrick

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