[ibogaine] Marc's comments on Carla's remarks

Brett Calabrese bcalabrese at yahoo.com
Thu Feb 27 12:50:01 EST 2003


Richard,

Sorry about politics/religion/culture debate... People
often take their ibogaine methods very seriously and
personally, and no wonder after seeing it work.
Ibogaine is unlike anything else on earth I can think
of, or took. Ibo, just by itself isn't (I should say
likely) going to do much more than a good detox,
unless you go with it and want it.  We all mean well
and I think that a bit of it is many treatment
providers are in different nitches to some extent,
clients are different, cultures are different. Patient
X may be happy with MASH and swear by her, so will
MASH - and need her style of tx. Patient Y (say me) is
fine with just detox me, break the cycle and I will
take it from there - I knew how to be clean. The IBO
does work like a charm, so long as the other pieces
come into play, you do your part/whatever else you
need.

No-one has a monopoly on love, it comes in many
different flavors and styles. Thinking someone elses
love isn't right because it isn't something you do, or
don't understand, OR because of vast cultural
differences and mis-understandings isn't part of
ibogaine, it is part of being human.  And then
sometimes you have gotten hit over and over with
something, then some loving person comes along and
because of prior experience, we jump to conclusions
too quickly... the defenses go up, old buttons are
pressed... In truth, we do love and respect each other
for the most part but seems that in the iboga world
people do take things too seriously (negatively) and
heads do butt.

Let me put it this way.

I have done ibogaine, it saved my life, gave me hope
and allowed me to go back and remake my understanding
of events and its effect on me. It is powerful but
very subtle, don't like a vision, a blink or a thought
will stop it. It isn't so rough as even I sometimes
make it out when I say it is, mostly it is just long,
non-stop, one after the other, with nice side effects
like ataxia, severe motion sensitivity (don't
move)/nausea maybe vomiting, photophobia, sound
sensitivity, some visual distortions and this strob
like/magnesium flares/tracers (white), kind of cool
but dizzying and get old (too much). Basically, stay
pretty still, flat on your back is usually best. If
you move, keep your head in-line with your body and
slowly (I said slowly which means you will likely need
help at first) sit-up/move... Telling you is one
thing, doing it is another and many people who you say
"move slow" will BOUNCE UP... and then land flat on
their backs in some shade of green. Some people
experience some anxiety, mostly on the way up and
mostly from HCL (much less with Indra but happens), I
usually split my dose to soften it a bit (it is
uncomfortable, hot horrible). Usually once people are
at altitude most if not all the anxiety passes, just
relax and deep breath nice and slow. Few tid-bits, I
sometimes get tired of the "trip" (for lack of a
better description) and get-up, shake it off, use to
go have a smoke but usually people are pretty
flattened by it, for whatever reason it does not
happen to me (well, lots of practice being wacked out
and trying to function I guess...).  As for safty, as
long as you follow procedure/protocol and are in good
health you are pretty safe. Pretty much any treatment
provider is going to follow (more or less) the basics,
fast, maybe an anti-emetic, a tester dose followed by
a main dose(or sometimes split into several doses). 

Success depends on your attitude and what you do with
the opportunity. If you want ibogaine to fix you I
suggest you go cop some good drugs someplace and have
at it till you are ready. Recovery requires work, you
have to want it, ibogaine is not going to make you
want it - well not usually anyway. Here is the deal
(and Marc keyed right in on it);  You do the stuff and
in a couple days (when you come down, mostly) you get
high - (don't worry, makes sense to me), which
basically means you feel shitty for a few days then
the door opens, the ibo-glow sets in (if it does),
some people have transient depression, the better
after-glow feeling/mood is generally with HCL (not
Indra as much). NOW is the time, here is your window,
the door is open, if you start NEW, you will have new,
if you do go back to the same old shit and do the same
old thing, you are very likely to be doing the same
old thing (drugs) in short order. Look it, it is like
all the programed wires got all pulled out, the
momentum in the direction you WERE going just got the
wind out of it, now it is up to you (ultimately) to
take advantage. You have to do new things, sometimes
deal/confront old ones (which happens without the
"FEELINGS" that keep you from doing it, the ego is
like gone, stuff like "water under the bridge"
disappears for the most part). SO, no matter how you
do it, YOU have to change but this time most (not all)
the effort is out of it.  THe ibo stays (nor-ibogaine)
in your system for a very VERY long time after doing
ibogaine, still providing some protection - as it will
diminish cravings, alter the HIGH (so you like it less
in most cases), things that were difficult, suddenly
get easier, health improves, I feel like got an
overdose of LIFE FORCE after. THis fades over months,
I have actually felt ibogaine still in me 11 months
after last dosing (the longest I went). It kind of
feels a little like an SSRI (but better) in you - but
no negative side effects, some people though are
annoyed by less sleep they will need or feel too
stimulated, most of the overt "feeling" of it passes
in a few weeks. There could be artifacts for weeks or
months, sometimes people get flashes of light at night
for a while after. Doing something like Yoga and
meditating will bring "IT" back a bit (ie going into
the "ETHER" is easier and you can FEEL the ibo more
during something relaxing/spiritual like
Yoga/meditation... Being an addict, you may have some
residual withdrawals, I am a fan of small doses if ibo
(1/2gm-1gm Indra or 100-200mg HCL typically) after a
main dose for people who are having a hard time. Now
it may take a while for you to feel right, this is
especially true if you have an addiction like
methadone, like a low-grade withdrawal for a while,
weeks, sometimes months. Often a 2nd treatment will do
the trick. Some people (like me) do their 2nd dose
sometime down the road, I did 8 months, some people do
it 6 months or so - that is about when it gets weak
(the nor-ibo you are still carrying in you ). Now all
those "doses", I don't think I am brain damaged, well
not any more than usual. I am no longer addicted,
stopped coke, alcohol and nicotine AND (thank you)
have a nasty side effect, opiate pain meds disagree
with me (I never had a big opiate problem, it went
with the coke...). Pretty much, I have no desire to
use or now days even smoke (7 months now), just brief
moments now and then.
Now, all that said, I have done ibo, oh, lots of
times. Basically every 6-12 months I like a little
tune-up - which means I put it off as long as I can.
It is big-time YUCK, not horrible, just long, arduous,
gotta block out a weekend pretty much though these
days I recover quicker. So, if it was that bad
(horrible) why would I do it again and again? I take
ibogaine for what it does for me, not for how it feels
when I take it (no one does, least not in high doses,
small doses it is kind of nice - FOR SUPER
CLEAN/HEALTHY me, you are unlikely to enjoy it).  Lets
see, if you are doing Indra, it is smoother, softer,
more "real", at usual dosages (ie 5gm) not as HIGH as
a full blown anti-addictive dose of HCL. HCL comes on
stronger, is a bit more cartoon like, not as
"spiritual" or real as Indra, sort of rips into issues
with a crow-bar and jack-hammer where Indra is more of
this parable story that makes sense to you (softer). I
can't say exactly what will happen if at all vision
wise, the only thing to fear is your fear (get over it
and relax), things you want to hold onto, your ego,
your issues, they don't want to leave... Ibo will do
this IN YOUR FACE thing with them that is totally
non-threatening, like looking at things without having
an ego (at all), seen from many perspectives all at
the same time (including someone elses). Sometimes
there are tears, emotions, smiles.

My advice, follow the rules (protocol/procedure), have
a  plan to change your life and do it, sitting there
waiting for the ibo to do it for you is a real bad
idea. And just do it, thinking about it generally has
negative results - from personal experience. I dislike
ibo and could easily awfulize about what is to come
(it is nasty, like if someone came to you with a spoon
of Castor Oil... but bigger, I mean epecac is more fun
than ibogaine), the only way is to just swallow the
suckers and let it happen, then I am fine, don't
think, do. 
Brett

--- thebozman <thebozman at compassmag.co.uk> wrote:
> Its Richard from Nottingham...
> 
> Here I am ! - two and a half weeks away from my
> first ibogaine experience
> and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self
> hate that is addiction !  I
> am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on
> this site........  I am
> very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have
> decided to go ahead - the
> psychoactive properties probably scare me the most
> plus the fact that some
> people have had negative experiences and fatalities
> have occurred - can
> anyone help to ease my apprehensions - many
> thanks....!!
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brett Calabrese" <bcalabrese at yahoo.com>
> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc's comments on Carla's
> remarks
> 
> 
> > Marc - and Marco
> >
> > I think there is a little "better than" going on
> on
> > both sides.
> >
> > Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
> > monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my
> computer
> > did the "blue screen of death" thingie). They have
> > wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way
> you
> > don't have to disturb their visions. TO that, it
> can
> > be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially
> so
> > for me my first time - it worked just fine anyway.
> >
> > Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
> > environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not,
> to
> > what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting
> (yadda)
> > make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you
> may be
> > setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
> > discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
> > different experiences than you have. I understand
> that
> > in your enviromnemt things (so far...) have been
> this
> > generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
> > sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
> > undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
> > successful/enlightening experience with as without
> > visions - though differently. As if it is some
> kind of
> > failure not to have them - that is not saying they
> are
> > undesirable either.
> >
> > > We dose them the way we do because it is
> neutral.
> >
> > Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially
> for
> > an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from
> people
> > who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo
> trip,
> > people who have done ibo more than once, on their
> own
> > terms - not ones dictated to them BY THE
> ENVIRONMENT
> > (I am not saying you are FORCING them - you
> sometimes
> > are SO THICK), the set/setting - not that most of
> them
> > won't want deep quiet/no light... that is pretty
> > standard/general/generic. In your environment
> there is
> > more control, which is a + when dealing with
> addicts,
> > but I certainly don't need that, neither does any
> > regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
> > sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could
> also
> > be some acustic thing going on where you are that
> is
> > particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
> > different than others. Also, some places, you are
> more
> > use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
> > certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere
> else.
> > Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
> > thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
> > rain/thunder)... got along pretty well on ibo for
> the
> > sound it was making, quite natural and maybe
> fitting
> > since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine
> in
> > thunderstorms for a very long time.
> >
> > > The patient can request
> > > music, but they never do. They can ask for
> anything
> > > they want, but they, we
> >
> > My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY
> WITH
> > THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss... Marc, it
> may
> > be in your environment that it works (not that I
> > agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all
> that
> > fluids and simply overkill especially for someone
> at
> > home doing it themselves. People  need to be well
> > hydrated, that is great.
> >
> > > think fortunately, want to be focused on their
> > > 'movie-of-their-life'
> > > experience and resist any and all distractions.
> >
> > If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice,
> great
> > even. Maybe, after a few hundred "visions" of
> various,
> > movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having
> todo
> > and having nothing to do with "my life" at times
> they
> > got, well, big deal - or sometimes NOT having
> visions,
> > thinking "what, that was it, got cheated"... only
> to
> > find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
> > ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
> > successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
> > focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are
> doing
> > the same, but don't know it) all that energy on
> seeing
> > visions, they won't have enough left for action?
> It
> > was one such, "bla" ibo session of about 12mg/kg
> > (thought I didn't do quite enough) that 1 week
> later,
> > I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never
> looked
> > back... That was one successful ibo session, not
> that
> > you could tell from the experience.
> >
> > >
> > > We don't impose rules on our patients, they tell
> us
> > > what they want. They
> >
> > That is not what I am hearing, though that is what
> you
> > are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
> > environment and that is cool (for you), certainly
> got
> > its +'s.
> >
> > > haven't want to hear people talking while they
> are
> > > concentrating, they don't
> > > want any background music, they tell us to stop
> any
> > > music (later they may
> > > ask for some, but that is rare), they don't want
> to
> > > smell eggs cooking,
> > > incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
> > > distracting/disturbing smell or
> > > sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After
> all,
> > > we are here to offer
> > > comfort and assistance to their experience. They
> > > dislike hearing the phone
> > > ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive
> to
> > > light and they want it
> > > stopped if it is bright or even nominally
> > > illuminated.
> >
> > All standard, generic, what people want when they
> are
> > being treated for the first time for the most
> part. It
> > is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT
> we
> > are RIGHT and you are WRONG - it is in your
> situation,
> > with your patients, who are addicts, where you
> are,
> > with your procedures, with the whole thing that
> you
> > project - that is how it turns out. IN THE
> IBOGAINE
> > WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of
> ibogaine
> > treatment that you have, where you are, with the
> kind
> > of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
> > doses, in your environment, with the things YOU
> tell
> > your patients, with the
> > sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are
> oat...)
> > people have many varied experiences and reactions
> to
> > ibogaine.
> >
> > >
> > > We have a creative environment here. We have art
> > > materials, a guitar,
> > > movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
> > > forest surrounds us and
> > > they are encouraged to take nature walks,
> meditate
> > > on the pier (we have a
> > > dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
> > > current patient is here for 8
> > > days, this isn't just ibogaine, this is
> hopefully
> > > REINVENTION, and we are
> > > here to help them, not control them. I am
> confident
> > > this is already the most
> > > suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of
> any
> > > place I have ever read
> > > about, heard about.
> >
> > To you in your experience, it even sounds great
> (to
> > me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr.
> Mash
> > thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
> > thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and
> Eric
> > Taub does a wonderful job too...
> >
> > There are however things you do (and they do that
> you
> > don't) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS
> in
> > particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn't have done
> any
> > better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse
> and
> > knew what to do to "get a life" - as in I didn't
> need
> > you to tell/show me, didn't need a 2nd treatment
> > within a month, I didn't need a "treatment center"
> so
> > Mash wouldn't have done it either.
> >
> > > Our patients get great care here
> > > and they tell us so.
> >
> > I'm sure they do and sure you are. I don't think
> > anyone disputed that at all.
> >
> > >
> > > Also, as to the issue of music, playing music
> that
> > > is a favorite of your
> > > past is potentially flawed, after all, our
> favorite
> >
> > And so is your analysis.
> >
> > > music is usually that
> > > with strong emotional associations from our
> past.
> >
> > Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
> > "past".
> >
> > > I'm not sure these
> > > patients want the familiar and comforting, they
> are
> >
> > Ya know, again, in your situation with your
> patients,
> > you are "not sure" but obviously seems that way to
> you
> > - then have it it your way. But let me throw this
> at
> > you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL
> comes
> > on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
> > wouldn't know), so I get myself very relaxed, into
> it,
> > meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP
> there
> > and settle down). When I say music, I mean very
> quiet
> > stuff. When I say incense, I don't mean smoke the
> > whole house, I mean light one, run around the
> house
> > for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
> > they don't like your kind, try Nag Champa
> sometime)
> > and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not
> stink
> > up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts
> out
> > low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way
> I
> > do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn't hardly hear it
> -
> > but oops, you wouldn't know would you? You are
> less
> > sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
> > mate would be or I would be if I were treating
> > someone... Marc, with a look, a comment, a
> movement I
> > can feel what they feel in a way you will never
> know
> > and never can respond to quite the same way.
> Vivian
> > (my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I
> complained
> > about things like smells and sounds (...) and to
> her,
> > she was being quiet... till she did it. THEN after
> she
> >  did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she
> needs
> > to do something she is sensitive to how it will
> sound
> > to me, what level and how delivered will the sound
> be
> > nice or not nice - YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU
> HAVE
> > NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report,
> well
> > great for them but that does not give you first
> hand
> > knowledge - as Marko pointed out, how was her
> dinner?
> >
> >
> > > I have never had any patient react to 'silence'
> as
> > > though it is something
> > > sinister as you suggest, Carla.
> >
> > I understand Carla completely, wonder why?
> >
> > >
> > > Your statement is remarkable in that you
> obviously
> > > HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
> > > proper ibogaine experience. All our patients
> >
> > Marc,  now you are talking with your head up your
> ass
> > about something you are not qualified to speak
> about.
> >
> > I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like
> that?
> > didn't think so) and all but again, you are not
> the be
> > all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is
> highly
> > arrogant of you.
> >
> >
> > > experienced a movie screen/
> > > fast moving motion-picture of their life thats
> lasts
> > > for 8 to 30 hours. All
> > > of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
> > > While this autobiographical
> > > movie of intense proportions is going on, the
> > > patient does not want
> > > interruptions or distractions. They tell us to
> be
> > > quiet, no music, no
> > > smells,
> >
> > Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED
> (you
> > repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum
> total
> > of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should
> be
> > done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
> > with a number of people who have had different
> > experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
> > differ from yours - oh, but you didn't have one,
> you
> > just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more
> than
> > watch).
> >
> > PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
> > > entire time, we can't
> > > even play music for ourselves. We answer the
> phone
> > > outside! (It never snows
> > > here though, so its not so bad)
> >
> > And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
> > others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic
> ibo
> > for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
> > using, in your enviroment, with your procedures,
> with
> > your walls, your floors, your staff... that does
> NOT
> > mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
> > ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
> > kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
> > addicted...previously have taken ibo...) wouldn't
> want
> > something different.
> >
> > Mare LISTEN CLOSELY
> >
> > Every single ibo experience is different - and I
> don't
> > give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from
> the
> > outside.
> >
> > Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic
> type
> > symptoms, stuff that happens...
> >
> > When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
> > whatever various flavors) it is different than
> someone
> > who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
> > happy!!! And generally they (we) would take
> somewhat
> > less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
> > several times). Then was then, which is not now -
> 2
> > different times. It is just like them not having
> > visions (or fewer) the first time but have them
> once
> > they are cleaner. It will also be different 6
> months
> > down the road (when some start to need another
> dose)
> > and different 1, 2, 3, 4... years down the road.
> Marc,
> > you have no such experience, why are you so dam
> > thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you
> trying to
> > do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people
> and
> > think you know it all? That is going to get you in
> > trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING
> A
> > WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
> > stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
> > better dose yourself, that'll do the trick).
> >
> > >
> > >    Carla, that you have said the following means
> the
> > > dose was way too low:
> >
> > Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not
> everyone
> > gets visions and they don't happen 100% of the
> time.
> > POINT, last time I didn't get them and did a
> higher
> > dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have
> had
> > "movie" scenes but not always and still got
> visions.
> >
> > >
> > > >>>And if its like doing a
> > > > movie then I missed the movie, that's what
> people
> > > like
> > > > to write about it but if its going to the
> movies I
> > > > sure missed the movie part of it.
> > >
> > > If you want the movie  for your own life, with
> all
> > > its revelations it can
> > > provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You
> can
> > > listen to whatever music
> > > you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
> > > experience has for you, it
> > > will be much more vital than what playing a
> familiar
> > > tune can do for you.
> > >
> > > What we provide is a neutral environment that
> > > reflects the person's needs as
> > > the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
> > > cues from the patient.
> > >
> > > As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla,
> etc.,
> > > I am grateful its
> > > myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are
> helping
> > > people here and not some
> > > of the people on this listserve!
> >
> > Ya know, there are good people in the world that
> know
> > things that are different than you do, that does
> not
> > mean they are not good people, don't know stuff.
> Maybe
> > it is you who have the issue and need to look in
> the
> > mirror - but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to
> say
> > you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey,
> they
> > work for you, right? Just too bad you don't want
> to
> > learn something new and everyone else is wrong -
> that
> > is how it sounds Marc.
> >
> > Brett
> > >
> > >
> > > Marc Emery
> > > Iboga Therapy House
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
> > > carlambarnes at yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick
> whenever
> > > > possible. Save the politician when running for
> > > office
> > > > or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem,
> anger
> > > > management issues are ok as long as the guy is
> > > cute,
> > > > you qualify. As long as you don't hit women,
> never
> > > > change.
> > > >
> > > > Marc I understand your being a great guy and
> > > helpful
> > > > but I'm a little weirded out. I too cant
> imagine
> > > doing
> > > > ibogaine without some music. I like
> alternative
> > > and
> > > > some ambient, I don't like total silence. I
> know
> > > youre
> > > > trying to do something good but it almost
> sounds
> > > like
> > > > punishment or something, you stick people into
> a
> > > dark
> > > > room with nothing to hear or smell and dont
> talk
> > > to
> > > > them??????? why on earth would you do that? I
> dont
> > > > know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but
> I
> > > love
> > > > what flowers and different perfume smells like
> > > when
> > > > I'm on ibogaine.
> > > >
> > > > Why do you do that? I dont think one person
> who
> > > has
> > > > done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
> > > doing a
> > > > movie then I missed the movie, that's what
> people
> > > like
> > > > to write about it but if its going to the
> movies I
> > > > sure missed the movie part of it.
> > > >
> > > > I don't ever attack anyone and I'm not
> starting
> > > now
> > > > well no I did get upset about the paying
> blacks
> > > not to
> > > > have children messages a long time ago here,
> but
> > > why
> > > > on earth do you dose people like that Marc?
> > > >
> > > > Carla B
> > > >
> > > > --- crownofthorns at hushmail.com wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> FWIW I can't even imagine doing iboga without
> > > music
> > > >> bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
> > > Dimly
> > > >> lit room. No mexican or thai food before
> either
> > > ;-)
> > > >>
> > > >> Other then that Marc please do not start
> Patrick
> > > up,
> > > >> it's like setting off the Karl Rove of the
> > > >> counterculture. I much much much prefer the
> real
> > > >> Patrick that says fuck and doesn't put out
> this
> > > wall
> > > >> of words like he, you and all of your staff
> > > always
> > > >> like to do.
> > > >>
> > > >> Why doesn't everyone donate .10 cents to get
> > > >> Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in
> the
> > > same
> > > >> room, to figure out what side everyone is on
> and
> > > >> then go run for office or start a PR agency.
> > > Don't
> > > >> see how any of you could lose. It's like
> talking
> > > to
> > > >> teflon. I truly do understand why none of you
> are
> > > in
> > > >> prison.
> > > >>
> > > >> No dis to any of you, but please stop before
> it
> > > >> starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of
> you
> > > >> talking all at once. It's like CNN covering a
> > > >> political conference in the professional
> weirdo
> > > >> zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
> > > going
> > > >> off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like
> the
> > > >> verbal apocalypse.
> > > >>
> > > >> Peace out and stick with fuck! ;-)
> > > >> Curtis
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 "Patrick
> K.
> > > >> Kroupa" <digital at phantom.com> wrote:
> > > >>> On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800],
> [A J
> > > >> Dietterle] wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hey Marc,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Just to open this, I wasn't attacking you,
> and
> > > >> didn't touch on any
> > > >>> of the
> > > >>> other points you made, since I guess it
> could be
> > > >> construed as discussing
> > > >>> information that doesn't really belong to
> me.
> > > I'm
> > > >> not really sure
> > > >>> why
> > > >>> various individuals on the list -- nearly
> all of
> > > >> whom I know, and
> > > >>> think to
> > > >>> be pretty cool people -- have all chosen to
> > > start
> > > >> arguing with one
> > > >>> another
> > > >>> at this precise moment in time.  But I'm
> just
> > > gonna
> > > >> assume it's
> > > >>> the phase
> > > >>> of the moon, or the alignment of the
> planets,
> > > and
> > > >> it is the time
> > > >>> of the
> > > >>> season to vent and unload.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and
> offer
> > > >> their own pathways
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> experience, and the possibility of gaining
> > > >> sufficient insight to
> > > >>> step out
> > > >>> of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not
> get
> > > you
> > > >> unsprung.  Point
> > > >>> taken
> > > >>> though, it's wasn't particularly relevant,
> and
> > > >> throwing it in at
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> tail-end of my message may have confused
> things.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As far as the music, scents, and interaction
> > > with
> > > >> patients goes.
> > > >>> I can't
> > > >>> say what exactly happened with roughly 250
> > > people
> > > >> in general; but
> > > >>> out of
> > > >>> the 50 or so whom I know personally from
> that
> > > >> number...  The experience
> > > >>> has been exactly as I described.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To summarize: they have displayed an
> extremely
> > > wide
> > > >> spectrum of
> > > >>> responses
> > > >>> to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
> > > scents,
> > > >> and interaction
> > > >>> with
> > > >>> other individuals while under the influence
> of
> > > >> ibogaine.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Some people like new age music, others love
> > > >> classical, Pink Floyd
> > > >>> is
> > > >>> highly popular -- what're the odds!?!?!? --
> in
> > > >> short, people display
> > > >>> individual preferences.  Allowing them this
> > > freedom
> > > >> appears to have
> > > >>> no
> > > >>> effect on the efficacy of their experience.
> > > >> Except, perhaps, to
> > > >>> make them
> > > >>> feel more comfortable.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If you find that 100% of your patients
> respond
> > > well
> > > >> to dark rooms,
> > > >>> no
> > > >>> sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
> > > >> others.  Perhaps this
> > > >>> is
> > > >>> because you are dosing them all under these
> > > exact
> > > >> conditions and
> > > >>> not
> > > >>> giving them other options.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The reason I commented was because I know
> many
> > > >> people who have done
> > > >>> ibogaine, and only a very small subset from
> that
> > > >> whole, preferred
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> conditions you describe.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> My post WAS all about me, it was a
> description
> > > of
> > > >> my personal responses
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> various stimuli while under the influence of
> > > >> ibogaine.  I have a
> > > >>> pretty
> > > >>> disparate collection of backgrounds, and
> perhaps
> > > >> the words "fuck"
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> "shit" find themselves present in my speech
> > > >> patterns -- or writing
> > > >>> -- with
> > > >>> greater than average frequency.  And on the
> > > >> flipside, anger management
> > > >>> issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh
> > > well.
> > > >> C'est la Vie.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
> > > YOU,
> > > >> or just angry
> > > >>> in
> > > >>> general; nope.  I'm having a pretty cool
> day,
> > > and I
> > > >> just saw something
> > > >>> scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so
> I
> > > >> commented.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> What I'm curious 'bout is: what do you do if
> > > >> someone is having a
> > > >>> really
> > > >>> bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
> > > >> experience, the answer
> > > >>> to this
> > > >>> question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine
> and
> > > all
> > > >> other entheogens
> > > >>> -- or
> > > >>> even tweaking out on crack for that matter:
> you
> > > >> INTERACT with them,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> reassure them, BELIEVE what you're saying,
> and
> > > >> radiate that.  They
> > > >>> will
> > > >>> get pulled into your space, and out of
> whatever
> > > >> negative headtrip
> > > >>> they're
> > > >>> in.  Well, with crack this doesn't really
> work
> > > out
> > > >> some of the time
> > > >>> =)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The words don't really matter, it's just the
> > > vibe,
> > > >> delivery, and
> > > >>> overall
> > > >>> tone and level of what you are emitting.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
> > > about
> > > >> those particular
> > > >>> aspects of whatcha mentioned -- so I
> commented.
> > > >> This doesn't change
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> fact that I think what you're doing is
> highly
> > > cool.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if
> you
> > > kill
> > > >> all external
> > > >>> stimulus,
> > > >>> then you are certainly going to amplify the
> > > >> TrIpPing oU+ part of
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> experience -- whoopsie, we don't say
> tripping
> > > out,
> > > >> I meant to say
> > > >>> an
> > > >>> oneiric state replete with waking visions.
> > > Kinda
> > > >> like doing any
> > > >>> entheogen
> > > >>> in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the
> level
> > > of
> > > >> experience.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But...  A lotta people don't necessarily
> like,
> > > >> want, or need that.
> > > >>> Maybe
> > > >>> they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug,
> and
> > > >> listen to Pink Floyd.
> > > >>> Different things work in different ways for
> > > >> different people differently.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> That's my experience anywaze,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Patrick
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips,
> more
> > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 


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