[ibogaine] Marc's comments on Carla's remarks

thebozman thebozman at compassmag.co.uk
Wed Feb 26 19:28:18 EST 2003


Its Richard from Nottingham...

Here I am ! - two and a half weeks away from my first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self hate that is addiction !  I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on this site........  I am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have decided to go ahead - the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities have occurred - can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions - many thanks....!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Calabrese" <bcalabrese at yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc's comments on Carla's remarks


> Marc - and Marco
>
> I think there is a little "better than" going on on
> both sides.
>
> Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
> monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my computer
> did the "blue screen of death" thingie). They have
> wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way you
> don't have to disturb their visions. TO that, it can
> be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially so
> for me my first time - it worked just fine anyway.
>
> Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
> environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not, to
> what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting (yadda)
> make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you may be
> setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
> discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
> different experiences than you have. I understand that
> in your enviromnemt things (so far...) have been this
> generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
> sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
> undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
> successful/enlightening experience with as without
> visions - though differently. As if it is some kind of
> failure not to have them - that is not saying they are
> undesirable either.
>
> > We dose them the way we do because it is neutral.
>
> Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially for
> an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from people
> who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo trip,
> people who have done ibo more than once, on their own
> terms - not ones dictated to them BY THE ENVIRONMENT
> (I am not saying you are FORCING them - you sometimes
> are SO THICK), the set/setting - not that most of them
> won't want deep quiet/no light... that is pretty
> standard/general/generic. In your environment there is
> more control, which is a + when dealing with addicts,
> but I certainly don't need that, neither does any
> regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
> sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could also
> be some acustic thing going on where you are that is
> particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
> different than others. Also, some places, you are more
> use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
> certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere else.
> Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
> thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
> rain/thunder)... got along pretty well on ibo for the
> sound it was making, quite natural and maybe fitting
> since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine in
> thunderstorms for a very long time.
>
> > The patient can request
> > music, but they never do. They can ask for anything
> > they want, but they, we
>
> My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY WITH
> THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss... Marc, it may
> be in your environment that it works (not that I
> agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all that
> fluids and simply overkill especially for someone at
> home doing it themselves. People  need to be well
> hydrated, that is great.
>
> > think fortunately, want to be focused on their
> > 'movie-of-their-life'
> > experience and resist any and all distractions.
>
> If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice, great
> even. Maybe, after a few hundred "visions" of various,
> movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having todo
> and having nothing to do with "my life" at times they
> got, well, big deal - or sometimes NOT having visions,
> thinking "what, that was it, got cheated"... only to
> find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
> ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
> successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
> focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are doing
> the same, but don't know it) all that energy on seeing
> visions, they won't have enough left for action? It
> was one such, "bla" ibo session of about 12mg/kg
> (thought I didn't do quite enough) that 1 week later,
> I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never looked
> back... That was one successful ibo session, not that
> you could tell from the experience.
>
> >
> > We don't impose rules on our patients, they tell us
> > what they want. They
>
> That is not what I am hearing, though that is what you
> are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
> environment and that is cool (for you), certainly got
> its +'s.
>
> > haven't want to hear people talking while they are
> > concentrating, they don't
> > want any background music, they tell us to stop any
> > music (later they may
> > ask for some, but that is rare), they don't want to
> > smell eggs cooking,
> > incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
> > distracting/disturbing smell or
> > sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After all,
> > we are here to offer
> > comfort and assistance to their experience. They
> > dislike hearing the phone
> > ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive to
> > light and they want it
> > stopped if it is bright or even nominally
> > illuminated.
>
> All standard, generic, what people want when they are
> being treated for the first time for the most part. It
> is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT we
> are RIGHT and you are WRONG - it is in your situation,
> with your patients, who are addicts, where you are,
> with your procedures, with the whole thing that you
> project - that is how it turns out. IN THE IBOGAINE
> WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of ibogaine
> treatment that you have, where you are, with the kind
> of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
> doses, in your environment, with the things YOU tell
> your patients, with the
> sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are oat...)
> people have many varied experiences and reactions to
> ibogaine.
>
> >
> > We have a creative environment here. We have art
> > materials, a guitar,
> > movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
> > forest surrounds us and
> > they are encouraged to take nature walks, meditate
> > on the pier (we have a
> > dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
> > current patient is here for 8
> > days, this isn't just ibogaine, this is hopefully
> > REINVENTION, and we are
> > here to help them, not control them. I am confident
> > this is already the most
> > suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of any
> > place I have ever read
> > about, heard about.
>
> To you in your experience, it even sounds great (to
> me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr. Mash
> thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
> thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and Eric
> Taub does a wonderful job too...
>
> There are however things you do (and they do that you
> don't) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS in
> particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn't have done any
> better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse and
> knew what to do to "get a life" - as in I didn't need
> you to tell/show me, didn't need a 2nd treatment
> within a month, I didn't need a "treatment center" so
> Mash wouldn't have done it either.
>
> > Our patients get great care here
> > and they tell us so.
>
> I'm sure they do and sure you are. I don't think
> anyone disputed that at all.
>
> >
> > Also, as to the issue of music, playing music that
> > is a favorite of your
> > past is potentially flawed, after all, our favorite
>
> And so is your analysis.
>
> > music is usually that
> > with strong emotional associations from our past.
>
> Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
> "past".
>
> > I'm not sure these
> > patients want the familiar and comforting, they are
>
> Ya know, again, in your situation with your patients,
> you are "not sure" but obviously seems that way to you
> - then have it it your way. But let me throw this at
> you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL comes
> on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
> wouldn't know), so I get myself very relaxed, into it,
> meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP there
> and settle down). When I say music, I mean very quiet
> stuff. When I say incense, I don't mean smoke the
> whole house, I mean light one, run around the house
> for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
> they don't like your kind, try Nag Champa sometime)
> and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not stink
> up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts out
> low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way I
> do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn't hardly hear it -
> but oops, you wouldn't know would you? You are less
> sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
> mate would be or I would be if I were treating
> someone... Marc, with a look, a comment, a movement I
> can feel what they feel in a way you will never know
> and never can respond to quite the same way. Vivian
> (my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I complained
> about things like smells and sounds (...) and to her,
> she was being quiet... till she did it. THEN after she
>  did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she needs
> to do something she is sensitive to how it will sound
> to me, what level and how delivered will the sound be
> nice or not nice - YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE
> NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report, well
> great for them but that does not give you first hand
> knowledge - as Marko pointed out, how was her dinner?
>
>
> > I have never had any patient react to 'silence' as
> > though it is something
> > sinister as you suggest, Carla.
>
> I understand Carla completely, wonder why?
>
> >
> > Your statement is remarkable in that you obviously
> > HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
> > proper ibogaine experience. All our patients
>
> Marc,  now you are talking with your head up your ass
> about something you are not qualified to speak about.
>
> I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like that?
> didn't think so) and all but again, you are not the be
> all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is highly
> arrogant of you.
>
>
> > experienced a movie screen/
> > fast moving motion-picture of their life thats lasts
> > for 8 to 30 hours. All
> > of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
> > While this autobiographical
> > movie of intense proportions is going on, the
> > patient does not want
> > interruptions or distractions. They tell us to be
> > quiet, no music, no
> > smells,
>
> Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED (you
> repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum total
> of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should be
> done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
> with a number of people who have had different
> experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
> differ from yours - oh, but you didn't have one, you
> just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more than
> watch).
>
> PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
> > entire time, we can't
> > even play music for ourselves. We answer the phone
> > outside! (It never snows
> > here though, so its not so bad)
>
> And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
> others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic ibo
> for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
> using, in your enviroment, with your procedures, with
> your walls, your floors, your staff... that does NOT
> mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
> ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
> kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
> addicted...previously have taken ibo...) wouldn't want
> something different.
>
> Mare LISTEN CLOSELY
>
> Every single ibo experience is different - and I don't
> give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from the
> outside.
>
> Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic type
> symptoms, stuff that happens...
>
> When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
> whatever various flavors) it is different than someone
> who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
> happy!!! And generally they (we) would take somewhat
> less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
> several times). Then was then, which is not now - 2
> different times. It is just like them not having
> visions (or fewer) the first time but have them once
> they are cleaner. It will also be different 6 months
> down the road (when some start to need another dose)
> and different 1, 2, 3, 4... years down the road. Marc,
> you have no such experience, why are you so dam
> thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you trying to
> do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people and
> think you know it all? That is going to get you in
> trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING A
> WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
> stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
> better dose yourself, that'll do the trick).
>
> >
> >    Carla, that you have said the following means the
> > dose was way too low:
>
> Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not everyone
> gets visions and they don't happen 100% of the time.
> POINT, last time I didn't get them and did a higher
> dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have had
> "movie" scenes but not always and still got visions.
>
> >
> > >>>And if its like doing a
> > > movie then I missed the movie, that's what people
> > like
> > > to write about it but if its going to the movies I
> > > sure missed the movie part of it.
> >
> > If you want the movie  for your own life, with all
> > its revelations it can
> > provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You can
> > listen to whatever music
> > you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
> > experience has for you, it
> > will be much more vital than what playing a familiar
> > tune can do for you.
> >
> > What we provide is a neutral environment that
> > reflects the person's needs as
> > the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
> > cues from the patient.
> >
> > As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla, etc.,
> > I am grateful its
> > myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are helping
> > people here and not some
> > of the people on this listserve!
>
> Ya know, there are good people in the world that know
> things that are different than you do, that does not
> mean they are not good people, don't know stuff. Maybe
> it is you who have the issue and need to look in the
> mirror - but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to say
> you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey, they
> work for you, right? Just too bad you don't want to
> learn something new and everyone else is wrong - that
> is how it sounds Marc.
>
> Brett
> >
> >
> > Marc Emery
> > Iboga Therapy House
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
> > carlambarnes at yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick whenever
> > > possible. Save the politician when running for
> > office
> > > or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem, anger
> > > management issues are ok as long as the guy is
> > cute,
> > > you qualify. As long as you don't hit women, never
> > > change.
> > >
> > > Marc I understand your being a great guy and
> > helpful
> > > but I'm a little weirded out. I too cant imagine
> > doing
> > > ibogaine without some music. I like alternative
> > and
> > > some ambient, I don't like total silence. I know
> > youre
> > > trying to do something good but it almost sounds
> > like
> > > punishment or something, you stick people into a
> > dark
> > > room with nothing to hear or smell and dont talk
> > to
> > > them??????? why on earth would you do that? I dont
> > > know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but I
> > love
> > > what flowers and different perfume smells like
> > when
> > > I'm on ibogaine.
> > >
> > > Why do you do that? I dont think one person who
> > has
> > > done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
> > doing a
> > > movie then I missed the movie, that's what people
> > like
> > > to write about it but if its going to the movies I
> > > sure missed the movie part of it.
> > >
> > > I don't ever attack anyone and I'm not starting
> > now
> > > well no I did get upset about the paying blacks
> > not to
> > > have children messages a long time ago here, but
> > why
> > > on earth do you dose people like that Marc?
> > >
> > > Carla B
> > >
> > > --- crownofthorns at hushmail.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >> FWIW I can't even imagine doing iboga without
> > music
> > >> bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
> > Dimly
> > >> lit room. No mexican or thai food before either
> > ;-)
> > >>
> > >> Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick
> > up,
> > >> it's like setting off the Karl Rove of the
> > >> counterculture. I much much much prefer the real
> > >> Patrick that says fuck and doesn't put out this
> > wall
> > >> of words like he, you and all of your staff
> > always
> > >> like to do.
> > >>
> > >> Why doesn't everyone donate .10 cents to get
> > >> Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the
> > same
> > >> room, to figure out what side everyone is on and
> > >> then go run for office or start a PR agency.
> > Don't
> > >> see how any of you could lose. It's like talking
> > to
> > >> teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are
> > in
> > >> prison.
> > >>
> > >> No dis to any of you, but please stop before it
> > >> starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you
> > >> talking all at once. It's like CNN covering a
> > >> political conference in the professional weirdo
> > >> zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
> > going
> > >> off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the
> > >> verbal apocalypse.
> > >>
> > >> Peace out and stick with fuck! ;-)
> > >> Curtis
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 "Patrick K.
> > >> Kroupa" <digital at phantom.com> wrote:
> > >>> On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J
> > >> Dietterle] wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hey Marc,
> > >>>
> > >>> Just to open this, I wasn't attacking you, and
> > >> didn't touch on any
> > >>> of the
> > >>> other points you made, since I guess it could be
> > >> construed as discussing
> > >>> information that doesn't really belong to me.
> > I'm
> > >> not really sure
> > >>> why
> > >>> various individuals on the list -- nearly all of
> > >> whom I know, and
> > >>> think to
> > >>> be pretty cool people -- have all chosen to
> > start
> > >> arguing with one
> > >>> another
> > >>> at this precise moment in time.  But I'm just
> > gonna
> > >> assume it's
> > >>> the phase
> > >>> of the moon, or the alignment of the planets,
> > and
> > >> it is the time
> > >>> of the
> > >>> season to vent and unload.
> > >>>
> > >>> LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer
> > >> their own pathways
> > >>> to
> > >>> experience, and the possibility of gaining
> > >> sufficient insight to
> > >>> step out
> > >>> of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get
> > you
> > >> unsprung.  Point
> > >>> taken
> > >>> though, it's wasn't particularly relevant, and
> > >> throwing it in at
> > >>> the
> > >>> tail-end of my message may have confused things.
> > >>>
> > >>> As far as the music, scents, and interaction
> > with
> > >> patients goes.
> > >>> I can't
> > >>> say what exactly happened with roughly 250
> > people
> > >> in general; but
> > >>> out of
> > >>> the 50 or so whom I know personally from that
> > >> number...  The experience
> > >>> has been exactly as I described.
> > >>>
> > >>> To summarize: they have displayed an extremely
> > wide
> > >> spectrum of
> > >>> responses
> > >>> to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
> > scents,
> > >> and interaction
> > >>> with
> > >>> other individuals while under the influence of
> > >> ibogaine.
> > >>>
> > >>> Some people like new age music, others love
> > >> classical, Pink Floyd
> > >>> is
> > >>> highly popular -- what're the odds!?!?!? -- in
> > >> short, people display
> > >>> individual preferences.  Allowing them this
> > freedom
> > >> appears to have
> > >>> no
> > >>> effect on the efficacy of their experience.
> > >> Except, perhaps, to
> > >>> make them
> > >>> feel more comfortable.
> > >>>
> > >>> If you find that 100% of your patients respond
> > well
> > >> to dark rooms,
> > >>> no
> > >>> sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
> > >> others.  Perhaps this
> > >>> is
> > >>> because you are dosing them all under these
> > exact
> > >> conditions and
> > >>> not
> > >>> giving them other options.
> > >>>
> > >>> The reason I commented was because I know many
> > >> people who have done
> > >>> ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that
> > >> whole, preferred
> > >>> the
> > >>> conditions you describe.
> > >>>
> > >>> My post WAS all about me, it was a description
> > of
> > >> my personal responses
> > >>> to
> > >>> various stimuli while under the influence of
> > >> ibogaine.  I have a
> > >>> pretty
> > >>> disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps
> > >> the words "fuck"
> > >>> and
> > >>> "shit" find themselves present in my speech
> > >> patterns -- or writing
> > >>> -- with
> > >>> greater than average frequency.  And on the
> > >> flipside, anger management
> > >>> issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh
> > well.
> > >> C'est la Vie.
> > >>>
> > >>> If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
> > YOU,
> > >> or just angry
> > >>> in
> > >>> general; nope.  I'm having a pretty cool day,
> > and I
> > >> just saw something
> > >>> scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I
> > >> commented.
> > >>>
> > >>> What I'm curious 'bout is: what do you do if
> > >> someone is having a
> > >>> really
> > >>> bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
> > >> experience, the answer
> > >>> to this
> > >>> question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and
> > all
> > >> other entheogens
> > >>> -- or
> > >>> even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you
> > >> INTERACT with them,
> > >>>
> > >>> reassure them, BELIEVE what you're saying, and
> > >> radiate that.  They
> > >>> will
> > >>> get pulled into your space, and out of whatever
> > >> negative headtrip
> > >>> they're
> > >>> in.  Well, with crack this doesn't really work
> > out
> > >> some of the time
> > >>> =)
> > >>>
> > >>> The words don't really matter, it's just the
> > vibe,
> > >> delivery, and
> > >>> overall
> > >>> tone and level of what you are emitting.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
> > about
> > >> those particular
> > >>> aspects of whatcha mentioned -- so I commented.
> > >> This doesn't change
> > >>> the
> > >>> fact that I think what you're doing is highly
> > cool.
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you
> > kill
> > >> all external
> > >>> stimulus,
> > >>> then you are certainly going to amplify the
> > >> TrIpPing oU+ part of
> > >>> the
> > >>> experience -- whoopsie, we don't say tripping
> > out,
> > >> I meant to say
> > >>> an
> > >>> oneiric state replete with waking visions.
> > Kinda
> > >> like doing any
> > >>> entheogen
> > >>> in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level
> > of
> > >> experience.
> > >>>
> > >>> But...  A lotta people don't necessarily like,
> > >> want, or need that.
> > >>> Maybe
> > >>> they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and
> > >> listen to Pink Floyd.
> > >>> Different things work in different ways for
> > >> different people differently.
> > >>>
> > >>> That's my experience anywaze,
> > >>>
> > >>> Patrick
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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