[ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
epoptica at freeuk.com
Tue Jun 4 11:26:26 EDT 2002
on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974 at hotmail.com wrote:
Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email me and I
will give you all the info.
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i've had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i
> have anything to worry about?
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais at yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you've lost me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to
>> "Cytochrome P450" and what any of that means.
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn't care if they live or die and are willing to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that
>> says volumes.
>> On that note I'd like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my
>> nightmares. Here's a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn't
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
>> I still don't have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>> "Patrick K. Kroupa" <digital at mindvox.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>> | Jon
>> | Which country are you in?
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts)
>> | as far as I'm aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don't get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
>> Look... Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it's
>> pretty simple:
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
>> then you are more or less -- probably -- okay.
>> This isn't the be all, end all, of testing, because it's a really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C -- in an active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
>> the world, I do not know... I just know what happens here. It should not
>> be impossible.), you dose 'em with a "low" dose of ibogaine to be safe ...
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn't being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
>> isn't anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
>> - - - - - - - - -
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is "okay" and nothing else is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>> - - - - - - - - -
>> Now... Here's the great big grey area...
>> What's "good enough" ... and how do you define that.
>> Medicine isn't very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons -- other than being shot, OD'ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck -- and there are an equal or greater number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get "normal").
>> All my tests are within "normal" ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I'm still indestructible and not old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I've
>> done to myself.
>> However... Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, "oh
>> well, I can't do this," and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried 'em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it's not
>> like I'm living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>> What I'm saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You're not gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid, I need this, I don't care what you
>> want or don't want.
>> And, I'd posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
>> something similar.
>> This is called desperation.
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
>> people who are in the "grey area" should have the chance to get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
>> with... I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you're dosing anybody who
>> fits this criteria... If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn't hurt either.
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you're in, it's quite possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges -- no matter how good your
>> intentions were.
>> - - - - - - - - -
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do... I would have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
>> wouldn't touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe... This may be
>> stupid, but I'm not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
>> feelings... I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, "hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
>> 'cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
>> Beyond that, it's very hard to say... Is this person all fucked up and
>> acting weird because they're smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
>> or because there's something seriously wrong with them... Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>> Because, as I may have mentioned... People who are desperate, tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.
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