[ibogaine] more on helping or killing
ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
Mon Jul 29 09:47:56 EDT 2002
>PS I'm an addict of about 20 years and my partner for way longer than me. My daughter is now 21, a really good person working with children and doing very well in life. She has seen a lot of bad things with our addicition and there has been a lot of guilt with the situation but she has also had loads of love and attention and honest discussions when old enough to do so, and seen what drugs can do to people. It will probably be one thing she will not do with her life. I know we love our daughter to bits and she loves us. What can be so wrong with that??? We all make mistakes but I thought the idea of life was to learn from them and go forwards . Allison<
THIS is what I was waiting to see posted. Beautiful Allison. Great points.
Of course, we aren't talking about FORCED sterlization, but still, seems more than a bit extreme, even when voluntary, when the stated reason money is availible for said sterlization is over certain drugs use.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alison Senepart
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Thanks to Preston for putting words to so many thoughts. I would like to know why its OK to focus on drug addicts for sterialisation etc. Why not go a few steps forward and include alcoholics, mothers on pharmacy medications, athletes on steroids, women with depression or other mental conditions, or perhaps any other people who are judged incompetent to have children, but by whose decision.?? Would be interesting to know who is going to be the judge and jury of the decision making in this sort of process. Perhaps those in favour of this idea could explain to me how they think it would work.
PS I'm an addict of about 20 years and my partner for way longer than me. My daughter is now 21, a really good person working with children and doing very well in life. She has seen a lot of bad things with our addicition and there has been a lot of guilt with the situation but she has also had loads of love and attention and honest discussions when old enough to do so, and seen what drugs can do to people. It will probably be one thing she will not do with her life. I know we love our daughter to bits and she loves us. What can be so wrong with that??? We all make mistakes but I thought the idea of life was to learn from them and go forwards . Allison
From: preston peet <ptpeet at nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Date: Monday, 29 July 2002 01:32
Subject: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
and my prior comments still stand, even though I do find myself, as I believe I've noted very recently, shaking my head when I see news clips of all these starving people around the world, people surrounded by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they thinking?
But personally, I'd rather help feed them and give them health care, (and myself too) than pay to subsidize Bush and friends' drilling for oil, or building death machines, or killing off the parts of the environment that we humans need to survive.
----- Original Message -----
From: ascending at hushmail.com
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
I see no problem with this at all. It's not as if these future moms are being herded into the sterilization pens.
As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems I don't have any interest in paying for some crackwhore's kids being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don't have enough common sense to know your a mess that's your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn't be my tax dollars paying for all that.
Sorry but that's reality. In case none of you read anything except drug lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no shortage of babies. None at all.
>> Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?
>The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
>to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
>for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
>pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
>This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
>should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
>seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
>> When does simple drug use become reason enough to
>> sterilize mothers?
>I don't see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
>no suggestion or hint of such - though really, I
>personally think there are cases where a person should
>be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
>year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
>another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
>all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
>drug addiction and you are pregnant again...). But
>that is my "opinion" but maybe I am looking at it like
>MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn't be
>allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
>for her disease. Sorry but I just don't see a problem
>with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
>specific birth control methods as some violation of
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