Where is this from???
carrierollins at yahoo.com
Wed Jul 24 15:29:01 EDT 2002
Hi all, some questions which are not completely
ibogaine related :-)
Who is this and where is this from? That attached is
from greenparty groups I'm reading and I find this in
the middle of it, which was never on this list in the
first place. Did I miss it or what is this about?
The other question I have is what exactly is the deal
on the other list with all of you, that british paper
is now on 5 or 6 articles and that latest one says
that guy who worked for Mindvox is some sociopath who
has restraining orders on him and tried to kill his
girlfriend with a knife. I know you made jokes about
this but it's for real? Who are all these people,
gweeds, ruy, useless account, sir dystic, what is cdc,
lopht, @stake? It also says that he is the reason you
guys went offline in 1997?
What I'm trying to ask is what is all this? I don't
understand any of it, the people who post to the other
list are talking about nothing I understand, ever. The
only part I understand is that a lot of you are
getting madder and madder at each other and I don't
get what it's all about.
--- Dana Beal <dana at cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
> From: "Patrick K. Kroupa" <digital at mindvox.com>
> To: "Dave Michon" <dajalyn at charter.net>
> Subject: [Response To]: Re: Fwd: Re: yr email
> This is a somewhat brief, point-by-point response to
> some of the topics
> which were raised in a letter Dana cc'd to me, and
> asked my input on.
> Please try to bear in mind the following things.
> : I do not know who some of you are (I know Dana
> and Howard); who and
> what exactly you represent, what the goals of your
> happen to be, whether you like the Democrats,
> Republicans, or
> are guided by the Illuminanti. Whatever. I dunno.
> : Along those same lines, I have no way of
> knowing what exactly all
> your inter-organizational conflicts happen to be.
> Or even if
> you have these; but I'm gonna guess that'd be YES,
> since every
> group of people loves to disagree with some other
> set of
> individuals. Life's just like that.
> : Brief summary of ME: I don't smoke pot, I've
> done heroin since the age
> of 14, I LOVE heroin, think it's simply magical;
> I've usually
> had money, gone to every Dr. Feelgood who holds
> This Week's
> Answers! to opiate/opioid detox; done all
> maintenance (methadone
> and burpinex, never had the chance to do heroin
> total bummer). Whatever. When I got unsprung my
> daily intake
> to get straight was 200mg methadone + 2 grams of
> heroin + 12mg
> Xanax, a day.
> Do I have the super-exciting "heroin gene" Ernest
> Noble is all giddy and
> excited 'bout? You BET! Have a variety of
> interesting neuroadaptions
> taken place due to chronic, long-term administration
> of exogenous opiates?
> Sure thing mahn! Dope ro0lz! It's the only time I
> ever felt "normal."
> What's not to like? It FIXES everything!
> Brief Media Kit is here: (Resume` Criminal Record
> & MANY Long Letters
> from shrinks, addictionologists, and "treatment
> professionals!" <giggle>
> available upon request!)
> And off we go!
> (Please understand that I am replying to THIS. I am
> unclear WHO exactly
> wrote this though...)
> | >If you have had bad experience with addicts I can
> understand your ideas a
> | >bit better. This is, however, like painting any
> group with a broad brush.
> | >Opioid dependent people are not universally
> predatory and those that were,
> | >or are, were, or are, that way because of
> Prohibition. Addicts without the
> | >horrifying threat of withdrawal are generally
> very good people.
> I agree, absolutely. The actions people take,
> usually fall under that
> very broad heading: "desperation." If drug
> prohibition were repealed,
> that'd be groovy. It would no longer be necessary
> to live like an animal
> or a slave, in order to support your "habit" if you
> happen to have made
> the choice to be drug-dependent.
> | >And all of this ignores the very real biological
> factors involved. We all
> | >know folks who, back in the day, experimented
> with opiates and gave it up
> | >fairly easily. Others couldn't. They possess this
> disorder - whatever it
> | >is.
> I am highly up on the latest science, specifically
> as it pertains to
> addiction. All of which ain't saying too much. In
> the last 10 years we
> have learned more about how the brain functions,
> then in all of recorded
> history up to that date. And... We still don't
> know very much.
> The entire concept of "addiction" for that matter is
> very ambigious and
> What appears to be relatively clear is that a
> certain subset of the
> population has a specific genetic predisposition for
> drug-dependent; in this case I'm talking about
> opiates in particular,
> although alcoholism, and probably all "addictions,"
> have a similar basis.
> Essentially; positing that you have this genetic
> predisposition to begin
> with. Then you experiment with opiates/opioids and
> discover they do
> something SIMPLY WONDERFUL for you. Which is
> usually followed by a period
> of nurturing your newfound "solution," into a
> full-fledged problem, which
> appears to be pseudoirreversible.
> EXCEPT . . .
> That isn't exactly true (covered a little further
> down, when I reply to
> I absolutely believe that everyone has the basic
> human right to select
> their own state of consciousness. A government that
> believes it should
> imprison me -- for my own good -- because I have
> made the choice to alter
> my state of mind; amounts to fascism.
> Even further, aside from concept of drug-dependence
> itself, there are a
> variety of other factors involved, such as; MANY
> people who are strung
> out, are self-medicating a variety of underlying
> disorders. And, God
> bless, because opiates/opioids are a damn good
> answer, which WORKS; as
> opposed to garbage like neuroleptics.
> - - - - - - - - -
> This is a long way of saying: I absolutely believe
> that each individual
> has the right to select what works best for THEM.
> People should have the
> right to MAKE CHOICES; not be treated as children,
> residents of a prison,
> or cattle.
> - - - - - - - - -
> | >
> | >But all this can get fairly boring and I'm sure
> you have your own strong
> | >ideas on the matter. All I ask is that you keep
> an open mind. I will do the
> | >same - to the best of my ability. It is my hope
> we can thereby establish a
> | >rapproachment. I am at your service...
> I have no clue what you're talking about, skipping
> | >Regarding ibogaine, and mj maintenance (which, I
> must confess, I have not
> | >heard mentioned before now) I would like to
> clarify my position. It is the
> | >same I gave to Howard Lotsof who contacted me
> following the last time I
> | >responded in this fashion to a similar post of
> yours. My view is that the
> | >options available to opioid addicts must be
> expanded. I feel this very
> | >strongly because 30 years of addiction have shown
> me that individual
> | >idiosyncrasy figures heavily . Some people do not
> respond well at all to
> | >methadone (I count myself among that number).
> Stories of ibogaine's effects
> Okay, I agree with all of this -- except I have no
> clue what "mj
> maintenance" is exactly...? Methadone maintenance
> never did a thing for
> me, except drive my habit into the stratosphere.
> Roughly 2 years of MMTP,
> gave me perhaps 3 days "clean." Off heroin anyway.
> Woo hoo!
> Of course, much of that is due to who I am and my
> own response to being
> "treated" with methadone. I have many friends who
> thrive on MMTP, and
> prolly an equal number who used it for a while, then
> continued to use it
> in smaller doses and eventually stepped off.
> I think MMTP, buprenorphine, and heroin maintenance,
> should all be
> available as options.
> If there is an argument here, I do not understand
> | >on some people but not others squares well with
> this concept. Accordingly,
> | >I
> | >believe an addict, probably along with their
> physician, should have easy
> | >access to (have CSA and regulatory barriers to -
> removed) whatever, within
> | >reason, they feel may be most likely to help
> them. It is crucial to
> | >understand that the consensus in our community is
> that there is currently
> | >no
> | >"cure" for opioid addiction and the simple
> withdrawal from opioid drugs -
> | >no
> | >matter how painless it may be made to be - simply
> leaves the chronic
> | >condition behind - and now untreated. We can get
> through a jones - most of
> | >us have done it many times. Note how we see
> opioid use as simple
> | >medicating,
> | >self or otherwise, of a painful condition that is
> only dimly understood at
> | >this time and that condition remains after
> withdrawal is over. That is why
> | >the pharmacoepia should be open.
> - - - - - - - - -
> -=/[The IBOGAINE Part -- If you skim the
> rest, READ THIS]/=-
> This is the part where some of the statements you
> are making are not
> correct. In particular as they apply to ibogaine.
> After many years of heavy opiate addiction, I had
> tried pretty much every
> available detox on the planet, ranging from UROD
> (Ultra Rapid Opiate
> Detox), Dr. Richard Resnick's "black box"
> (electronic acupuncture),
> methadone, buprinex, tapering down to clonidine and
> valium, the home
> version of UROD (naltrexone with a handful of Xanax
> and clonidine), and of
> course the various unplanned detox's in hotel rooms
> with Bacardi 151 and
> whatever I could get my hands on at the time.
> Any or all of these methods "work." In the final
> analysis all you really
> need in order to get off of opiates is an empty room
> and some time. In the
> end you wind up feeling the same anyway. Which is
> to say, physically
> unwell - to put it mildly. Personally, this is also
> right around the time
> I always remember that heroin addiction isn't really
> my problem, it's my
> Ibogaine is NOT a "cure" for drug addiction,
> although it very well may be
> the greatest solution for drug-dependence. It will
> NOT magically rewrite
> everything inside your head, it will not hand you a
> brand new life, and it
> will never make all your memories of how great
> heroin is; go away.
> HOWEVER: It *DOES* bring you back to the point
> where you are making
> CHOICES and NOT following compulsions.
> Yeah, I'm way-fucked, I light up half the DSM, I'm
> manic-depressive as
> hell, dysfunctional, and I LOVE heroin... However,
> after a lifetime of
> using the shit... I have 3 years completely clear
> off ALL
> opiates/opioids. If I ever make the CHOICE to use
> heroin again, it will
> be just that; a CHOICE that I make.
> Heroin rocks. I will always know that, I have
> learned it, I cannot unlearn
> it. But it is no longer this force beyond my
> control which is compelling
> me to keep chasing the shit, no matter what the
> consequences happen to be
> (and with our wonderful "War on Drugs," they can be
> pretty fucking
> I have done EVERY opiate detox that exists, tried
> all the available
> treatment modalities. None of them worked. Okay,
> sure, MOST of them
> "work," inasmuch as when I finish them, I'm "clean."
> BIG FUCKING DEAL,
> I'm also -- usually -- sick as fuck, and if not, I
> am STILL overwhelmed
> with the need to use heroin. Big wow. Why even
> bother putting myself
> through this crap, how much do I hate myself?
> What ibogaine appears to do is his a <RESET> on your
> brain. Saying that
> "addiction" (by which I mean drug-dependence. I am
> talking about the
> changes that take place on a neurological basis, in
> response to chronic,
> long-term self-administration of dope) is
> reversible, isn't exactly
> correct either.
> What it appears to do is reset your brain to a point
> BEFORE you ever
> became drug-dependent in the first place.
> Addiction, what addiction?
> Your drug-dependence is non-existed.
> It is far beyond a detoxification. And far less
> than a complete rewrite
> of your psychology. Although you DO enter a
> headspace wherein you may
> experience waking visions, in an oneiric state,
> replete with hypnagogic
> imagery, which is TOTALLY UNLIKE Tripping the Fuck
> That part can be a tremendous boost with regards to
> that whole
> reintergation scenario. It CAN make lasting and
> profound psychological
> changes take place as well... But that part is...
> Well, it's all over
> the map, and depends a lot upon the individual. And
> nope, it sure doesn't
> work for everyone.
> - - - - - - - - -
> Being drug-dependent is a CHOICE. Drug dependence
> is NOT an irreversible,
> chronic, progressive disease (you're thinking of the
> 12-steps, which ARE
> a pseudoirreversible, chronic, progressive mindcult
> that convinces you of
> Drug-dependence may well be the BEST possible
> answer, to a variety of
> questions and/or problems.
> But it is NOT a life sentence. It all amounts to
> being a series of
> And each individual who is in the position of being
> strung out, should at
> the very least have the OPTION of making those
> - - - - - - - - -
> | >As an example, I abhor the idea of UROD - the
> "Ultrafast Detox", but I
> | >think
> UROD blows dead goats dude. Done it twice, same
> results both times. Lot
> of dollars for a lot of pain, followed by a lot more
> dollars to bang up
> enough heroin to overload the receptor blockade of
> those annoying
> naltrexone implants designed to "help me." Which
> was another annoying
> detour of having to cut that shit out of myself.
> What fun.
> | >it should be available - same with Naltrex and
> the like. Blowfish toxin? Go
> | >for it. And, of course, ibogaine. Have you seen
> the Chinese work done on
> | >Etorphine (yes, that's right, the most powerful
> of the Bentley Compounds
> | >and
> | >the most powerful narcotic on Earth)? *No*
> withdrawal symptoms!
> | >Methocloccinamox, NMDA antagonists, proglumide,
> and on and on. Most
> | >important, and for disparate reasons, is that
> heroin maintenance, and other
> | >adjuvant opioid therapies like Palfium, should be
> available with, or
> | >without, cocurrent methadone. The Swiss and Dutch
> studies speak for
> | >themselves.
> | One of my biggest concerns is that of all those
> stupid kids out
> | >there: heroin maintenance would get them "in"
> from the cold. It would also
> | >strike a real blow to the black market filth.
> Fuck yeah mahn. Agreed 100%
> | >So that's my position vis a` vis ibogaine and
> where I think it should fit
> | >in
> | >our community's spectrum. If marijuana
> maintenance is what I think it is, I
> | >would have no objection whatever to it,
> naturally. But that wasn't the crux
> | >of my post, of course. I wrote out in response to
> what I saw as a
> | >patronizing tone in your writing concerning
> opioid addicts in general.
> | >If you've known one addict - or fifty - you don't
> know them all. More
> | >importantly, consider that there are almost two
> hundred thousand methadone
> | >maintained people in the US and most have put
> heroin and painkiller use
> | >behind them to try to take their rightful place
> in society - not an easy
> | >task. Many of us are growing old and have a
> lifetime of achievement we can
> | >point to and I'm sure you know there are
> professors, lawyers, engineers,
> | >etc. on methadone continuing exemplary careers.
> Yeah, that's great. How does this conflict with
> | >We are a developing community - developing thanks
> mainly to the Internet.
> | >We
> | >are indistinguishable from others unless you know
> we're on methadone. We're
> | >proud we've been able to come back from active
> addiction. We are "coming
> | >out
> | >of the closet". We are beginning to speak up.
> Imagine how we feel when we
> | >are talked down to or lumped into a stereotype.
> It is so much worse when it
> | >comes from an activist of your credentials.
> | >
> | >I know who you are and admire your career. I'm
> sure we agree on most other
> | >issues. What you say has impact.
> < -- No idea what you're talking/arguing(?) about
> here. Skipping -->
> | >Perhaps you might even consider whether the
> plight of American addicts -
> | >what I consider the last great civil rights
> battle to be fought - might not
> | >be an excellent subject for your skills. Talk
> about fighting for the
> | >oppressed!
> Yup. Those who make the choice to use drugs, or are
> drug-dependent, are
> effectively the last tribe of niggers on the planet.
> An entire strata of
> society it is alright to hate, disrespect, imprison,
> and strip of their
> rights. All because I am guilty of the "crime" of
> choosing my state of
> Bummer mahn.
> | >I understand the cannabis cognoscenti does not
> want to be herded onto the
> | >same cattle cars as the addicts. Marijuana
> shouldn't be treated the same as
> | >heroin. That is ridiculous. But I think the
> public knows that already.
> <The rest of this I have skipped, because it's
> reiterating many of the
> same points again, and mentions others which I am
> simply unaware of, so
> what's to say...>
> - - - - - - - - -
> On [Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:52:53PM -0400], [Richard
> Lake] wrote:
> | I was a little bothered by some of the other drugs
> being tested. It is one
> | thing for a person to seek treatment using some
> drug with a full
> | understanding.
> | But I worry that some of these drugs could be used
> against the will of
> | folks in forced treatment, both here in the U.S.
> and elsewhere around the
> | world where the rights of folks are not respected.
> | Richard
> Yeah, no kidding... Drugabusesciences and their
> spin control in
> particular... Are, uhm, somewhat disturbing with
> their vision of a
> drug-free utopia just over yonder horizon...
> "And next, by 2007 we will have inoculations that
> prevent orgasm!"
> Woo Hoo
> *****!!! May 4, 2002 Cannabis Liberation Day:
> Updates, Reports!!!******
> Pubdate: Wed, 17 Jul 2002
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